Inside Marketing with MarketSurge

Welcome to Inside Marketing
With Market Surge.

Your front row seat to the
boldest ideas and smartest

strategies in the marketing game.

Your host is Reed Hansen, chief
Growth Officer at Market Surge.

Reed: Hello everyone.

Welcome back to Inside
Marketing with Market Surge.

Today we're joined by Ben Heitz,
co-founder of the Skinny Platform,

launched in 2023 with his father, Dan.

Ben created a fresh approach to publishing
by turning interviews into skinny

books, short, sharp, and read in under
60 minutes that get Entrepreneurs real

Voices out without Ghost Writer dilution.

These short books act as strategic
marketing assets, establishing

thought leadership, amplifying your
voice and fueling promotion through

audio vis video and social clips.

Ben, welcome.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

Yeah.

Thank you for having

Reed: Yeah, my pleasure.

Uh, you know, we, we got acquainted
recently and, um, I, I thought the

business you're doing is so cool, and I
think a lot of businesses could really

benefit from what you do and, uh, wanted
to, to help broadcast your message.

Um, so Ben, tell us a little bit about.

What life or career experience led you
to start the skinny platform and was

there a single experience that helped you
think that, you know, we need to get a

better way for entrepreneur entrepreneurs
to publish their, their work?

I.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

Yeah, so this is, uh, whenever I
get this kind of question, I always

laugh a little inside because if
you look at my experience and my

background i's I was barely passing
high school English classes.

So ghost writing I did not
think would be in my future.

Um, but.

What happened was I actually started
a different business where I was in

the tech space and uh, I was going
through that and then COVID hit,

and with everything that happened,
ultimately the business didn't work out.

I ended up moving back home with my
parents, and this is when I started

seeing issues around ghost writing
and publishing because my dad had been

talking about writing a book for as
long as I can remember, 10 or 15 years.

And when I moved back home was around
the time that he really committed

to figuring it out and doing it.

He had hired a ghost writer, was
going through that whole process, but

ultimately still wasn't satisfied,
still wasn't kind of moving it

along to where it should be and.

home, I had some new time on my hand.

I had some free time and frankly
I was a little annoyed with him

constantly talking about it.

So I was just like, Hey,
let me take a shot at this.

And I think coming at it with that
fresh perspective of not knowing

anything and not having experience
with it, allowed us to really create

something unique and different 'cause.

We didn't know what there was out
there, so we didn't recreate anything.

We didn't, follow any other guidelines.

We just really looked at from,
okay, this is where we are.

This is where we're trying to get there.

How do we, what's the path to
of least resistance to do that?

And that kind of created this
opportunity with skinny books.

Reed: Awesome.

And I love that you started with a,
uh, problem that needed to be solved.

You know, one that, um, even kind of
tangentially you were experiencing

personally, um, you know, just your,
your, uh, uh, you know, your father just

talking about it all the time, and I.

So tell me a little bit about,
so there's one interesting aspect

of, uh, the skinny platform, the
60 minute, uh, read time format.

How did you land on 60 Minutes, uh,
as, as like an ideal time for a book

to be consumed and, uh, you know, what,
what kinds of results have you seen

or what kind of, um, observations have
you had as, as, uh, you've done this?

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

Yeah.

Uh, this I.

Really where we can provide
values to the readers.

We do a ton of stuff to provide value
to authors, on the reader's side,

this is really our value proposition
and we've updated our a little bit to

move away from an exact timeframe to
more a book that can be read in one

Reed: Hmm.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

That was kind of the original
idea behind the 60 Minutes.

Uh, but now we clarify that more with
a book that can be read in one sitting.

And the whole idea is content
and how people consume

content has changed so much.

Keeps getting shorter, more
condensed, more bite size.

But if you look at books, especially
business books, stayed the same for the

past hundred years or whatever, 200 years.

And, uh.

We really wanted to match the
trends and evolution with how people

consume content, we did that through.

Designing the book so that way you
can pick it up, read it all without

having to put it down and come back
to, 'cause we all have a stack of books

that we started, got 20 pages and put
down, and then never went back to.

It happens to everyone.

Um, but that was kind of our thinking.

And then recently, uh, listening
to Dan Sullivan podcast, he

writes shorter books also.

Um, he mentioned a stat from Borders,
the former bookstore, where a book with

200 pages of the people that buy it.

So people invested money to get this book.

About 2% will read the entire thing.

That's it.

Reed: Wow.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

Yeah.

And then if you bring that down to,
I forget if it's either 60 or 80

pages, the amount of people that will
finish it goes all the way up to 80.

So if you wanna write a book that
people actually read, it has to

be in the skinny book format and
the data's there to prove it.

Reed: Interesting.

Yeah.

That I, you know, I'm, I'm a
pretty avid reader and, um, I.

Yeah.

You know, I, I think I could confirm
that usually just anecdotally, you

know, that like I, there are a lot of
books that I start and then they're

due back at the library or they're,
they're doomed to my, my pile here.

You know, I'm just
looking at it as we talk.

Um, okay.

So let's talk a little bit about,
like, some of the business effects

of this, um, have, have you.

Uh, you know, had any experiences
with, with, uh, these, these customers

where they report back on, you know,
how this is effective as a tool.

And, you know, I know you do
some, some effort to make this

a multi-channel marketing tool.

Um, talk a little bit about that as well.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

Yeah, I think one, my favorite example
is with a book that's not even out yet.

with this person, we started doing
kind of the prep work and the interview

that creates the content of the book.

And in that process, just
through us asking questions.

Forcing him to okay, this is how I'm
gonna say it, moving forward to kind

of solidify everything forced him
to really reflect on his business.

And he's been running this
IT company for 30 plus years.

And by going through our process, you
know, after we did the interview, we

didn't hear from him for two months and
we're like, what the heck is going on?

Like, we thought we were doing great.

And then he pops back up and he
goes, yeah, after going through that,

I repositioned my whole business.

We, going through the process, he
identified opportunities and where he

wants to bring this business, uh, just
by that forced to refine it and then.

Stick to a position and not
constantly change over time.

'cause it's going into a book.

In the book, it's gonna stay the same.

if you go and say it different
every time, people are gonna notice.

Reed: now.

Um, so let's talk a little
bit about that process.

Um, you know, how, how is
a book constructed now?

I, I, I would guess that as you described,
as somebody that didn't enjoy, I.

High school English, that you've made
it pretty user friendly for non-writers.

Um, h how, how, how is, how does,
how do you start and how does

that end up in a published book?

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

Yeah, so our entire
process is conversational.

If you are a writer and wanna get in
there, get your hands dirty, great.

That makes it even
easier for us, honestly.

Uh, but we've built our entire
process to create the book

through a series of conversations.

So that starts at the beginning
where my partners, either Catherine

or Ben, who do the interviewing,
with the entrepreneurs to.

Like I mentioned, refine that message.

Uh, we call 'em story mapping

Reed: Hmm.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

So you're creating the story, the
journey you want the to go on, not

just through the content of A to
B2C, but what's the emotional journey

that you wanna bring them along.

Uh, all that happens
early on in the prep work.

And then that leads to.

A sit down interview they had
all this PR practice in the prep.

So now they can say it in a clear
organized way in this sit down interview.

And then from there what we do is
we take the transcript from that

interview and turn that into a book.

So I like to say we don't ever do any
writing, we're just editors, you know?

And that differs from other ghost
writers 'cause they'll do the interview.

They'll get the concepts, get
the ideas, but then they end up

writing it in their own words.

us using the transcript, we're literally
using the entrepreneur's words to write

the book, so that way when they do go out
and talk to a lead or talk at a whatever

it is, it's gonna match up word for word
what's in the book, because we're carrying

their authentic voice throughout it.

Reed: That's really cool.

Um, now do you, what, what
kinds of businesses and, and

entrepreneurs and, you know, uh,
uh, professionals do you work with?

Uh, you know, and, and maybe who, just
for some guidance, who would be a best

fit for this kind of, uh, product?

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

Yeah, so our largest segment is definitely

Reed: Okay.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

Um, and that's not been just
like a coach in one category.

We've had sales coaches helping
people build sales teams.

We've had, we're working with a coach
right now who's more about mindset.

So.

Really within that coaching segment,
there's a large range of topics, but

that is the individual that comes to us.

But that's probably about half
of our business right now.

And then the other half is
kinda a large of things.

We're working with companies to write
books on their core values and culture.

We've worked with doctors,
uh, we're working with a

therapist to write about like.

Uh, family dynamics and the inner critic.

we've really worked on a
lot of different topics.

Uh, our latest book that
went out was Angel Investing.

Uh, so yeah, we've been, in terms of
the topics, it's across the board,

but we're focused on is the coaches
and the entrepreneurs as the authors.

Reed: Okay.

You know, and, um, I remember a few
years ago my wife who ran her own

business, she was, um, getting into
coaching and, um, I think she really

could have benefited from this.

You know, she, she was like a practitioner
and I could totally see the book as

being a great like launch vehicle.

You know, you to da, you know, make your
debut into coaching, you know, even if

you, um, are brand new to the field.

So I, I think there's, you
know, a lot of potential there.

Um, do you, do you find that, um, people
are, are, are they using these books?

Um, are they selling these books?

Are they giving them away?

What has generally been
the, the approach like, um.

You know what I mean?

Like, you know, because like give
it away as a promotional gift

or, uh, are, are they actually
getting revenue from selling these?

I.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

Yeah.

So, uh, upfront with our authors,
we say if you're writing a book to

make the book profitable and make
money off the book, we're probably

not the right people for you.

Uh, we're very honest about that.

We're where we provide the most
value, like I mentioned, is in.

Getting your message down, getting
your message solidified and refined,

and then communicating that message.

Um, and that doesn't mean that
we're not trying to sell books.

We've recently partnered with a book
printer to expand distribution into

Barnes and Noble's, target, Walmart,
all those stores and everything.

Uh, but our main goal
is on the writing side.

That's our focus.

In terms of the use case of the
books, we a lot of lead qualification

is kind of the biggest use case, so
not exactly lead gen, uh, but more

the qualification piece of someone
comes in, says, Hey, I'm interested.

They're able to hand them a book
and rather than going through 3, 4,

5 calls to see if they wanna move
forward, well, because they have the

book, they've gotten insight into
the process and into that person.

Now it's one or two calls.

Uh, we had one person who
cut their kind of, uh.

The time it takes to close a sale
from about three months down to

less than 30 days using the book.

Uh, that's been by far the largest
use case, especially for coaches.

Um, but then we also see similar
use cases through like the culture

book I mentioned where they're a.

Um, they do a lot of m and

Reed: Hmm.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

and so they'll hand the book to
Tar m and A targets and be like,

Hey, this is what we're about.

Here's our history, here's our culture.

this something you're
interested in joining?

it is been interesting to
see that going into this.

I 100 will, percent would've thought
that is for lead gen and to get kind

of organic leads through the door.

But that has not been the case.

It's more so on that qualification side.

Reed: That's, that's really interesting.

You know, and I, I, I like these creative,
um, these anecdotes, the, um, was it a

coach that you mentioned earlier that, um,
was using this to shorten the sales cycle?

Is that, is that the case?

Awesome.

Awesome.

Yeah, that I could
totally see that because.

A lot of sales processes include, um,
some back and forth in like, well,

you know, learn about my company
and then I'll learn about yours.

And, um, you know, but if you
have a book, it's on paper.

It's like, it's, uh, and it, it does
indicate a level of like serious interest.

Like if you're, if you're
gonna read somebody's book.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

Exactly.

Yep.

Reed: did you know much about the
publishing industry or, or marketing?

I, I mean marketing, yes.

You, you've been in business
before, but the publishing

industry, were you very familiar
with this going into this venture?

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

Yeah,

Reed: Okay.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

all.

Just been kind of building the airplane
as we fly it on that side of things.

uh, that's been.

Interesting to see.

'cause like I mentioned, not
knowing these things going into

it was a real strength for us.

But now it's been kind of fun
for me at least, to see working

backwards from what we built to now.

have six books out.

Let's start learning about what
traditional publishing is looking like

so we can see how our process differs
and where we can optimize and everything.

And we're really just kind
of starting to get into that.

Like I mentioned, we
partnered with a book printer.

we're just starting to
do PR for our books.

So really this publishing space
is kind of the next frontier of

opportunity we see to really.

Get better at.

Uh, we've gotten really good at
the writing process part, which

is what we pretty much were
solely focused on at the start.

And now that we've built out
our processes, we've proven

them out, made them repeatable.

We started hiring writers, we now going
to the next phase, which is publishing

and getting that book into people's hands.

Reed: Um, so how, how did you, how
did you find writers, um, you know,

how have, so I guess I've got a
follow up question to that, but how,

how did you find writers that were,
you know, a good fit for your team?

Um, I.

And, you know, what characteristics
do you look for in, in these writers?

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

Yeah, so we actually, for the
most part, look at journalists

rather than traditional, like book
writers, just because with the

skinny book we're trying to get.

Uh, the point across and communicated
and condensed, whereas typical book book

writers like to add a lot of detail and
adjectives and kind of build out Uh, so

that's one thing that we do differently.

Um, but then just in terms of the
people at this point, we're small

enough where it is all been people that
refer to us, either friends, family.

One of, uh, the writers we're working with
now is a partner of mine's old babysitter.

So it's been a lot of close
connections, friends and everything.

Uh, but that's also I think, great for
the culture of the business because.

They know what we're like going into it.

We know what they're like going into
it and really simplifies things.

'cause you don't have to evaluate
kind of the culture fit piece

of things because we know them.

Reed: So, you know, networking
is obviously a great tool and

you've been using it heavily.

What, what tips would you
give to an entrepreneur, um,

in regards to networking?

Like, how do you do it well?

How do you get started?

How do you, um, you know,
turn acquaintances or, or,

um, or others into, uh.

Leads, partners, employees, you
know how, how do you do that?

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

Yeah, I think, uh, well the biggest thing
for me, which might not be the case for a

lot of entrepreneurs, 'cause entrepreneurs
tend to be an outgoing bunch.

but the biggest thing for me
was just the mindset of leaning

Reed: Hmm.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

Now I am a person where I had my
group of people I'm close with, and

I typically stay within that group.

Uh, so networking and.

Going to an event where I knew no one
was kind of daunting task at the start.

Uh, so leaning in and just making the
best of the situations was a e piece to

getting started then kind of improving
my situation and gave better at it.

I think the biggest piece of advice I can
give is just be curious, like people don't

want to hear you talk about your business.

People wanna talk about themselves.

So ask about que ask questions, ask
about what they're up to, ask about

their business, and really you can
get a lot of insights into people

and what they're for through those
questions and how they talk about it.

And then.

Through that, you'll recognize
opportunities to say, oh, here's

a place where I can provide value.

And that's kind of my second,
uh, piece of advice is coming

from a help first mindset.

been a lot of times like, I'm helping
someone right now publish a book for free.

They already wrote the whole thing.

I'm just helping them out 'cause

Reed: Mm-hmm.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

Like if you can help someone out,
I think that's the uh, best way

to kind of go about networking.

'cause then they'll remember you and if
they have a friend that's looking for

writing a book, they might refer them.

So be curious and going with a help
First mindset is kind of my two key

components of my networking approach.

Reed: Yeah, that's great advice.

And I, I think I share with you the.

You know, I'm, um, I, I do have a tight
circle of friends and it, it does take

some effort to, um, to break out of that.

But it, I have seen some real
payoff in, in doing that.

And, you know, your advice about curiosity
and, uh, offers to help, I think are,

you know, there, it's, it's like a.

You can't always like see tangible returns
on that, but it does, it does benefit you.

Like it, it, it, it does
come around sometimes.

It's in the long term and, uh,

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

Oh,

Reed: yeah.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

Yeah.

I have not seen the dividends from it yet,
but no doubt that building up karma in

Reed: Yeah.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

is never a bad thing.

Reed: Ab.

Yeah, absolutely.

Now, uh, you've been doing this for a
while and now do you see, for the future

of the skinny platform, do you, um,
wanna just focus on growth and where you

know, in your lane what you're doing?

Or do you plan or, or want to expand to
different formats or different services?

Have you thought that far?

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

Yeah, so that was one thing we
were kind of doing from the start.

We're we're like, okay, we're doing this.

Let's get really good at, but also keep
our eyes open for the next opportunity.

Um, and I think that's been a shift
in our thinking over the last month

or so it's really become, really
good at this book writing thing.

optimize it now.

Let's get really good and
let's just be, let 100%.

Heads down, focus on book writing.

there was a time where we were
looking at doing people's podcasts.

we were looking at possible
membership models, uh, for readers.

we were thinking about all
these different things.

And I'm not saying that they're
completely off the table, for the time

being, we're 100% dedicated to the
ghostwriting and publishing service.

Reed: that, that makes sense.

Um, yeah, but I mean, if you're, if
you're, if you've got a team of great

writers, you know, there's a million
ways to use a, a great team like that.

Um.

Okay, so let's talk about AI now.

Um, and every writer is, is
and marketer and, uh, publisher

is thinking about AI now.

How has AI affected your business
and how might you expect it to

affect it in the, in the future?

Um.

You know, I could, I, there's obviously
tremendous value in what you do.

Um, but what, what are your thoughts on
AI as a, a partner or as a disruptor?

What do you think?

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

Yeah, so I.

It has been a huge help

Reed: Oh, great.

Great.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

uh, starting out, like when we were
getting going, it was just right

around the time, uh, GPT-3 came out.

So it was just kind of this first
wave of, uh, consumer ai and wouldn't

have started this business without it.

wouldn't have had transcriptions of.

like the interviews that we do.

And that was kind of the first key
component we needed to say, okay,

this is something that we can do.

Uh, and then for the first three or four
books, I still would test out the AI every

time, we would hand edit those transcripts
into the book format just 'cause the

AI was not good enough to do that yet.

And then probably.

A little less than a year ago.

It got to the point where the AI was good
enough, where it saved us time to do the

Reed: Mm-hmm.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

and, uh, using Claude.

Reed: Hmm.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

So then we started putting the
transcripts through Claude and that

turned into the rough drafts of the book.

I mean, just at that point
we went from spending about.

30 hours to do a rough draft.

Now it takes four to six hours.

Reed: Wow.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

that amount of time that AI is

Reed: Yeah.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

it keeps

Reed: Yeah.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

And uh, like we still use, uh, like
the grammar check tools and AI and

everything, uh, but still after
that rough draft, it is handed

off to a human editor and writer.

that's where kind of the editing
process is able to be conversational.

'cause with an entrepreneur, they're busy.

Yes, you could talk to an AI
and have it edit the transcript,

uh, or edit the rough draft.

But then the entrepreneur
has to go through, check it

all, make sure it all works.

So it still is not good enough at that

Reed: Awesome.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

where it surpasses a human
writer, especially in terms of

saving the entrepreneur time.

Reed: That's awesome.

I, um, I, you know, I love to hear
that kind of success because you've

combined, you know, still human touch
and expertise with, um, massive savings

on the, I mean, you know, there, there's
effort in interviewing, like asking good

questions that give compelling answers,
and there's effort in the, the final

polish, you know, like it's, it's not.

This isn't, uh, you know, AI
isn't really capable of, of

generating masterpieces yet, and

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

Oh

Reed: know,

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

and the interviewing piece is
extremely human still, and I don't

see that aspect of it being replaced.

and then also, like you mentioned,
the final polishing and proof reading.

I don't see that being replaced as either.

Uh, but like going to the interviewing
piece, all that prep work that

we do with an entrepreneur.

Sometimes they come in thinking they're
gonna write a book about one topic.

Well, if they're within ai, I'm sure

Reed: Yeah.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

it.

AI is very encouraging.

So they'll end up writing about
that topic if they did it with

Reed: Right.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

But with us and being forced to reflect
and refine it, they get to topic B and

then C, and then, oh, that's the topic
that I really wanted to write about.

And you're not gonna get that with ai.

Reed: No, that's, that's a
great, that's a great summation.

Now for, you know, la uh, I guess second
to last question for entrepreneurs or

business owners or thought leaders,
coaches that are on the fence about

writing a book, you know, like I.

Maybe they, it's something
they haven't done yet, and

they're like, uh, I don't know.

Um, what would you, what would you
say is your elevator pitch and,

uh, you know, and why, why would
this be valuable for them to do?

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

Yeah, so

Reed: I.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

think if someone's on the fence about
it, have to consider two things.

Are they doing it or are they on it
because they don't wanna spend the time

or they don't wanna spend the money?

they don't wanna spend the time, there's
solutions out there, you can get it done.

We're one of them.

And there's other people as well, if
they want more traditional book or a

different format, there's solutions out
there that solve for the time piece of it.

Like on that front, over about the
90 days it takes to write a book

with us, it's about a 20 to 25 hour
time commitment from the author.

That time piece can be, uh,
done away with through processes

and ai like we mentioned.

Uh, if it's the money piece, it's
about the model that comes next.

So through our process, we generate a
ton of content so you can then use that

content to p pitch speaking engagements.

You can use that content
to pitch your services.

So by working with a ghost
writer, working with.

publisher that content can then.

Be monetized through additional
routes, whether it's speaking

engagements or promoting your
service, which I think is the most

underrated part of book publishing.

'cause people just look at the book.

now you have a hundred pages of
content and four hours of video.

Think of everything else
you can do with that.

can have clips, you can
have podcast episodes.

You have all this content that you
can then use to promote yourself.

Reed: I love it.

I love it.

Well, Ben, where can people.

Will find you if they're interested in
learning more about skinny platform or

you know, have any questions directly
for you, where would be the best

place for them to get ahold of you?

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

Yep.

It's still being built out, so I've
been spending the last week or so

building it, but it is up and live.

Uh, write as skinny.com

is the best place to find us.

on there.

You can schedule a meeting
with me directly or you can

contact us through email.

Whichever way is preferred.

once again, write a skinny.com.

Reed: Awesome.

Well, Ben, it has been a pleasure.

I, I love this topic.

I'm a, I'm a avid reader and, and
I think, you know, I think you've

sold me, I think I need to do this.

So, um, let's let.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

We would love to work with you.

Reed: I love it.

Um, so reach out to Ben and, uh, hopefully
we can keep in conversation and, and, uh,

you know, be in contact in the future.

Ben Heuertz - writeaskinny.com:

Yes, absolutely.

Thank you for

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