Inside Marketing with MarketSurge

Speaker: Welcome to Inside
Marketing With Market Surge.

Your front row seat to the
boldest ideas and smartest

strategies in the marketing game.

Your host is Reed Hansen, chief
Growth Officer at Market Surge.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Welcome back
to Inside Marketing with Market Surge,

where Bold Tactics meet Brutal ROI.

I'm your host, Reed Hansen.

Today we go analog in a digital
world with Travis Lee, co-founder

and president of 3D Mail results.

The guy who makes direct mail not
just delivered, but opened, read,

and remembered since 2008, Travis's
3D mail direct marketing system

has delivered jaw dropping returns.

From 200% to over 3500% for everyone from
solo entrepreneurs mailing at a kitchen

table to global brands mailing millions.

He's worked with legends like
Dan Kennedy, bill Glazer, and

the Magnetic Marketing Crew.

So because this isn't your grandma's
postcard campaign, let's dig in.

Welcome.

Travis Lee: Hi Reid.

Thanks for having me.

Great to be here today.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge:
Yeah, my pleasure.

You know, I always like to work
with people with, you know, very

high energy and, uh, you know,
with some unique perspectives.

Um, so they don't get bored of
talking about the, the same old

things that, that I talk about.

But, um.

Now a lot of us are using digital
platforms for marketing primarily.

Uh, can you tell us a little bit
about, just at a high level, why

is direct mail and like physical,
uh, marketing like that, why is it

not dead, but actually a gold mine?

Travis Lee: so I'll start
off with a couple stats here.

I got my little cheat sheet
so I don't forget 'em,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Perfect.

Travis Lee: won't bore you with numbers,
so I'll go over 'em relatively quickly.

Um, but just some of the numbers.

This is all from 2024
A-U-S-P-S study, right?

So the USPS does a study
every handful of years.

They want people to use mail, right?

So they gotta incentivize this little
bit, uh, but the really good numbers.

So the first thing is.

80% of people say they look forward
to seeing what's in their mailbox,

so 80% look forward to going out to
the mailbox, seeing what's in there.

73% of US consumers prefer direct
mail for brand communication

because it allows them to read the
information at their own convenience.

of direct mail is opened.

I don't know about most email, but I'm
guessing it's something far less than 66%.

Um, and this is the
last one I'll give you.

Then we can kind of talk about it.

Direct mail has an average shelf life,
so when it hits your mailbox at the time,

it goes back into the garbage of 17 days.

Now, of course, that's letters, that's
invitations, that's bank statements.

That's magazine, right?

That's everything.

But 17 days on average, emails 2%.

Or 2%, excuse me, two seconds.

Excuse me.

So this isn't to rail against digital.

I use digital.

I think you found me on LinkedIn,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Right.

Travis Lee: email, we use all that
other stuff, but it's a tool in

your toolbox that most people don't
even have or don't even think about.

So that's really the reason to be
there, is people like it, they trust it.

and it's just received different
it, it's held different.

You know, I like to tell people, when was
the last time you printed off a coupon and

stuck it up on the fridge from an email?

never everybody gets Valpak.

Uh, you know, at the simplest
level, everyone gets the Valpak

mailers and almost all of them take
one or two things out, and they

stick around for those 17 days.

So that's why you wanna look at this.

It's, it's not an either or.

It's a should, should this
tool be utilized more?

And, and is it even in
my toolbox right now?

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

No, that's a great point.

Now, uh, you know, you've cited
some statistics showing that

it can be quite effective.

Um, you know, maybe it'd be interesting
to hear why, and then let me throw in.

Also you have a, a unique system, your
3D mail system that gets even higher

returns than the average mailer.

Uh, maybe talk a little bit about that
and its, uh, increased in effectiveness.

Travis Lee: Well, so just at the general
level with direct mail in general, tactile

stuff, when we hold something, feel
it, touch it, have it in our fingers.

I mean, there's mailers out there where
you actually can smell 'em, right?

I mean, they'll put.

the cologne fragrance on, you gotta
scratch and sniff it, type of deal.

Right?

So when you get that feeling in your
hands you get all the senses working,

it's a better sales environment than
just staring at something on the screen.

Right?

So that's kind of the first thing
it's the whole, and you kind of

said at the beginning, it's the
whole digital versus analog, right?

So now we've got, you know, the
Gen Zs who have been living with

digital their entire lives, right?

So it's not like they
were just born into it.

And we're seeing now that
a lot of them are moving.

You know, I wanna hold something.

Everything in my life is digital.

Everything in my life is up in the cloud.

I don't own anything.

I don't have anything.

And so at its simplest levels, it's just
that human urge to touch and feel and hold

and be able to stick it over here, right?

I mean.

Think about your office, whether
you're at the home, whether you're

at an office, doesn't matter, and it
doesn't even matter if it's B2B or B2C.

We all have that spot somewhere where the
mail goes, and that's where we get that 17

day shelf life where it kind of is like.

Oh yeah, I was supposed to go and do that.

I was gonna get that thing.

I was gonna redeem that thing.

I was gonna do that thing.

And then to take it kind of a step
further, so, you know, we do a lot

of different kinds of direct mail,
um, but kind of our bread and butter

is what you mentioned is 3D mail.

So I, I'll show a couple props here.

Uh, I assume we're on video.

Uh, I'll describe 'em if we're
not, but like, we send out these

little pill bottles, right?

So these are like the pill
bottles you get at your, per, you

know, at your, at your pharmacy.

But we're able to put messages in
here, put a label on it, send it to

the person, and now we're there, you
know, you're, you're cure four blank,

you know, so you're cure for, uh,
horribly slow internet speeds, right?

If we're gonna go that way or
you're cure four, whatever.

It, it really is kind
of a universal thing.

Um, we're here in the summer.

We're here in the us We
just had Independence Day.

One of our fun little ones that
we do here is what's called a.

Pocket constitution.

So your right to or your right.

So there's a whole
bunch of different ways.

I have clients now that just send these
out as gifts every summer to their list.

And now they're getting calls every year.

Hey, I didn't get my
pocket constitution yet.

When are they coming?

Right?

And so there's, I'm sure there's
clients of our clients that maybe

have 3, 4, 5 of these stacked
up somewhere, but they love 'em.

Right.

Uh, I'll give one more example.

'cause it's universal.

We have these little boomerangs here,
so these little plastic boomerangs,

you know, we get 'em in in Asia,
they're inexpensive, but we use

them as client reactivation mailers.

So every business has customers
that bought from them.

And then didn't buy again, like over
the natural course of time, right?

A dentist is easy.

Every six months you go to the dentist.

If you hit month number seven,
the dentist should be sending you

something similar to this, right?

So we say, we want you back, and we put
a little boomerang into the envelope.

So it's fun, it's tactile.

Um, you know, when you get this
boomerang in the envelope because we

still just stick it in an envelope.

They gotta know what's inside, right?

They can feel it, they can touch it.

Let alone if a pill
bottle shows up, right?

A pill bottle shows up.

probably opening it before they even
walk back into the house, right?

Because

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Right,

Travis Lee: all marketing,
all advertising, all sales

comes back to attention.

Can we get their attention for
two seconds, then five seconds

in a minute, and then 10 minutes?

And that's the currency in today's
day and age for marketing and sales.

And if you don't have
attention, you can't sell.

And so that's ultimately why we
started this business, is we needed

our direct mail to get attention.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Interesting.

Okay, so I have a couple, maybe
you could talk me through a

couple potential use cases.

So, um, I think there's certain
industries I associate with physical mail

that I'm used to getting mail, about.

And, you know, I get a lot of,
banks, a lot of local banks are

soliciting me or real estate
agents are, reaching out to me.

the other, you know,
there's a few, but, say me.

I offer a digital service primarily.

and I don't traditionally
expect to get physical mail as

advertising a digital service.

Do you think that's still an effective
platform for somebody like me?

Travis Lee: I, so first off, yes.

I'll give you a great kind

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yep.

Travis Lee: case study
from one of our most recent

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Great.

Travis Lee: it's appropriate 'cause
he's, he used these little pill

bottles and since we're, you know,
we kind of talked about that one.

He is a coach in the real estate space.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

Travis Lee: not real.

It mainly the get.

You know, everyone calls it the
slimy get rich in real estate niche.

Right?

but you know, that's what it is.

That's what it essentially is.

And he's lived most of his life
online and he's sold most of his

stuff through webinars so everything
is delivered online, right?

The sale, the lead gen is done online.

The selling is done online.

The delivery is done online.

And like everybody, he's seen
those numbers go down, right?

So the registration numbers
go down, the show up rate goes

down, the close rate goes down.

And what he did, he did
something very, very smart.

He took that list.

So these are all low level buyers.

At some point they've given him some
small amount of money, and now he's

putting them in a webinar to sell
them into a higher ticket product.

Right?

now let's say he's got 500 registrants.

He gets 250 to show up.

you know, we're usually
seeing 40 to 50% show up.

and then he's got Some number that bought.

Well, now he has got some of those
250 that watched but didn't buy.

Right?

So can we send them something
in the mail to, up the ante?

Could we give them, you know.

payment options that
weren't on the webinar?

Could we give you know, a dollar
now and pay the rest in 30?

Right?

So there's lots of different offers
we could give them to follow up.

He also had 250 people that
registered, but didn't show up, right?

And so now we've got this
other pocket over here, right?

And so if you think of it in terms of
like sales funnels or marketing funnels.

We use direct mail as they're coming
down that funnel, we wanna try to

use direct mail to plug as many
of those holes as we can, right?

So if you think about it, everyone
uses an autoresponder, right?

So we get an opt-in, they get
a free thing or a low cost.

Thing, they opt in and now we
drip on 'em with email, right?

Well you can do the same
thing with direct mail, right?

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Hmm.

Travis Lee: or we've set up a lot of
clients now where they get a lead or they

get a buyer and now they want to ascend
them instead of just relying on email.

We're sending very similar, to
be honest, very similar offers,

very similar messaging to
that same person, but offline.

But doing it the same way,
like an autoresponder.

So it doesn't matter if Bill or
Jack or Tammy comes in in day one,

seven or 50, they're all going
to experience that same thing.

So there are, you know,
lots of ways to do it.

Those are just kind of the two ways
that we've talked about so far.

But you wanna look at that sales cycle,
look at that sales funnel and where

can we plug holes in so that they
don't drop or so they do drop out the

bottom instead of coming out the sides.

That's what we're looking to do.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

No, that's great that, um, you know, I
think that really explains it well and.

Um, you know, I did like the aspect
you touched on of combining the digital

marketing efforts with the physical.

I think that, um, one of the
principles of marketing we try to

think of is to maximize the number
of touch points that, uh, you have

with a client or a potential client

You know, the issue sometimes is,
well, seven emails don't equal seven

touches because if they don't like
it the first time, then they send

you to spam and it's one touch.

But if you are able to find other
channels, then you, uh, you know,

obviously increase the probability
of them working with you.

Okay, so one thing that I know people
have struggled with, and this is totally

a digital and physical problem, is
getting a high quality mailing list.

The, a success of a email campaign often
relies on the bounce rate, and I'm sure it

works like that in the direct mail world.

what is a good process to getting
a really strong, mailing list?

Travis Lee: so it's a great question.

we like to say internally is that the
success of any direct mail piece is

about 50% list, 20 to 30% like media.

So how are we delivering it?

And then kind of 10% other, right?

So you got 50, 25, 20 and then five or
10 other being, you know, COVID 2020.

You're offering, um, dining March
of March 20th, 2020, and you send

out a mailer for your restaurant.

You're toast.

Right?

And nothing we could have done

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah, sure.

Travis Lee: Whatever.

Every but 50% of that battle is the list.

So in the hierarchy of lists, uh, I gave
you the first two already, which is your

customer list and your prospect list.

You should absolutely have
the most success with those.

And it's why when we're consulting
clients, we almost always.

Where are your unconverted leads?

Where are your old customers?

Like where, where in your business
are those holes already existing?

So that's a relatively easy one, right?

We can see it.

Anyone that has a database, um, you
know, now with CRMs, it's become

exceedingly easy to do all this stuff.

I mean, even the most basic email
programs have the ability to have

addresses and things like that.

So that's kind of in
your own little cocoon.

From there, you've gotta think about,
okay, what if I wanna prospect?

What if I want to get people to know me?

Kind of that very top of the funnel thing.

And it really comes down to narrowly
defining who your client is.

So most people will say, you know,
men 45 to 65 with a certain income.

But usually we can go
deeper than that, right?

And so it really starts with clearly
identifying who that client is.

If you're doing Facebook and
any kind of platform advertising

right now, they basically stole
all that from direct mail, right?

all the demographic data, all the
interests, all the buying data, right?

They stole that from people that
have been, um, collecting that data

since, you know, the 1880s, 1890s.

I mean, so this list, little
interesting side note.

The credit bureaus are the ones
that usually supply this data.

And it started with, you know, the most
basic of credit cards, the most basic of

credit worthiness a hundred years ago.

And then they found out they were
sitting on a gold mine with the data.

And the data was more important
than the stamp of approval for

a credit worthiness, right?

So now you can get all this data, um, and
we can even get like intention type data.

So let's say you're a dentist
and they hit your website.

But they don't do anything, right?

They hit your website, they don't opt
in, they don't make the appointment.

We can actually put like pixels on your
website now and get that address, and then

it's what we call direct mail retargeting.

Everyone knows what retargeting is.

Now we take that same person,
that dentist, maybe they hit the

Orthodontics for Children's page,
we're able to get that address.

Send out a postcard for Orthodontics
for Children and retarget via the

mail, and now you've got all the
great things happening that we talked

about the previous 10 or 15 minutes.

So they can't ignore you.

There's no email, there's
no firewall, you know.

Uh, lover hate the USPS.

They don't care what you send in
the mail for the most part, right?

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Right.

Travis Lee: there.

as long as your legal, ethical,
and moral, they don't care, right?

And so

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Travis Lee: we want.

And so that's kind of the example
of that, but it really starts

with identifying your list.

We have tools now as well.

Where we can take a customer
list and deconstruct it and

see all the commonalities, and
then go buy that same list.

We did that for a dry cleaner
in Wichita, Kansas, for example.

So there's a lot of different, I mean,
we could do a whole course on just list,

but that's kind of the basics of it.

Customer

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Travis Lee: list, and then
very defined prospecting list.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

No, that's super helpful.

Um, another, uh, kind of example question.

Um, so I think maybe to help, help at
least me visualize this, um, say we

were taking like a services provider,
like a, uh, say like a, a plumber.

I always go to plumbers, but
I really respect plumbers, but

Travis Lee: Dennis.

'cause everyone knows Dennis.

Right?

So we're in the

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

Travis Lee: it comes to that.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Well, I think,
you know, commonality that they have

is like the driving distance is kind
of what determines like the radius

that people will, work with somebody.

now if I were design a campaign, can you
talk a little bit about like, timeframe?

Are we talking like a single
mailer or a series of mailers?

Um, and.

Maybe like approximate
budget and, actual work

Travis Lee: Yeah,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge:
required of the client.

Travis Lee: so some of that
is gonna be very broad.

As a big

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Mm-hmm.

Travis Lee: of thumb, we

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Travis Lee: More pieces mailed
to the same list, right?

So I'd rather do.

500 people three times
than 1500 people once.

That's just kind of the general
big rule of thumb for us.

But I'll give you an example.

In the home services industry, we
have a client, um, they do roof,

siding, windows and doors, right?

But what they really want, what
they want more than anything in the

world is the guy that wants to drop
$80,000 for a backyard remodel.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Sure.

Travis Lee: patio in, put the
pergola in, put a kitchen in, right?

And so with that kind of guy, so we've
got for, and this is real world example,

right now, the home services business,
we've got basically two campaigns.

We've got a campaign where he gets, let's
say, we'll call it the simple stuff.

Roofing, roofing repair windows, that
kind of stuff, kind of the necessary

evil parts of his business, still

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Mm-hmm.

Travis Lee: good for him.

So with those people.

He usually knows a decent amount
of time where he is gonna be.

So we'll drop a mail
piece before we show up.

Hey, we'll be at the Johnson's house
doing X, y, z, um, and yada, yada yada.

then while we're there, we'll
drop a direct mail piece.

Then after we've been there, we'll
drop another direct mail piece.

Right?

And so the idea being most homes in
most places are clustered together.

They are all built around the same time.

They all have about the same qualities.

And, you know, they're generally
speaking the same value of the home.

the residents are generally speaking.

Made up of the same demographics.

So he identifies those places.

Now there's some neighborhoods he doesn't
necessarily wanna be in, so he doesn't

necessarily mail to those customers.

You know, it might be a one-off for him.

So we have that over there,
and it's a system that we do.

He also has this other system
over here where one of two ways.

He's either in the neighborhood
and doing one of those $80,000

remodels in the backyard, right?

Or adding additions onto things.

And in that case we'll do the
same thing, but we'll spice it up.

We'll start using, uh,
uh, boomerangs, right?

Because those are his high margin items.

Those are the things, and
he likes to do 'em right?

So let's market those things more.

At the same time, even in neighborhoods
where he's not, he will still

target maybe 150 to 500 homes.

Because again, they're
all clustered together.

They're on acreage usually.

So he's out in Western Pennsylvania.

So they'll do, they're usually
on acreage, you know, three to

4,000 foot homes, cer, right?

And so we can identify that person.

And now we do what's called a Dream
100 campaign, where we're dripping on

those a hundred, 200, 500 homes, you
know, usually every month, because

again, he's perfectly happy to pay,
maybe not perfectly happy, but he's

happy to pay several thousands, even
tens of thousands of dollars to get a.

80, a hundred, $150,000 job.

Right.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Travis Lee: us back now to the
last part of your question was how

much to spend, where, you know, the
budget, it's all gonna depend on

who that client is, you know, the
mailer and who their clients are.

So the plumber.

Probably can't do the boomerangs
and the pill bottles that the

home rebuild can, uh, right.

Because, you know, um, generally
speaking, there are hundreds of

dollars, not thousands of dollars.

Right.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: right.

Travis Lee: if we're, but, so a
lot of it's going to de depend

on what's my client value?

What's a transaction value, what's
the lifetime value of that client?

Um, you know, so there's a lot of things
that go in involved into what do we spend,

but those are the things to consider.

Right?

Value of it, value of the transaction.

Um, is it an ongoing relationship where
they, they could potentially be giving me

money every week, every month, every year?

Well, maybe I'm perfectly happy
going negative on that first sale.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Sure.

Travis Lee: at the apple.

Well, I can't be negative on
that first bite of the apple.

I gotta be positive.

So that changes, you know, it changes
the dynamic of what you can spend in

marketing and what you can't spend.

End.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

No, that's, that's helpful.

And you know, Travis, I get the sense
that you're not just selling a commodity,

that you are, selling your expertise and
really like, you make it make sense and

I, and I, even to somebody that I just
have no experience with direct mail,

though I'm a fan, I, have just never
pulled the trigger on those campaigns.

But I think you're inspiring me.

Travis Lee: Yeah.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Um,

Travis Lee: and that's the client we want,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: yeah.

Travis Lee: we

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Travis Lee: the client, like I described
at the beginning or even the home builder.

Um, we wanna set up systems,
we wanna create things for

you that's best for us, right?

I mean,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Travis Lee: You

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Right.

Travis Lee: about, hey, we get
a client that gives us money

every week, that's great.

But then

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Travis Lee: is he gets money every
week because now he has these

marketing systems in place where

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Right.

I.

Travis Lee: go and they happen.

Like an autoresponder, right?

Just like that.

And so that's the kind of
relationships we wanna work with

clients that wanna build systems.

Now, again, most people.

Are in the one-off world, right?

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Mm-hmm.

Sure.

Travis Lee: What can you
do to get me customers now?

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Travis Lee: world, we're hopefully
taking that customer, getting them the

results they need in the short term and
then saying, Hey, how can we automate

this or systematize this so that
you're not running to me every quarter

saying we need more customers today.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Right.

No, that makes a ton of sense.

well, Travis, I think
we're all pretty inspired.

can you tell us if somebody would wanna
work with you, where could they find you?

What's the best means to find you?

Travis Lee: give you two
different, uh, websites.

The first one is just

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Great.

Travis Lee: 3D mail website.

It's where you can see boomerangs
and pill bottles and bank bags and

constitutions and things like that.

The fun stuff, right?

The stuff that's fun to look
at and be creative with.

That's 3D mail results.com.

number three, the letter
D, mail results.com.

You can check us out.

We've got a free booklet
there you can download, right?

We do all the direct response
stuff, so you'll see that there.

If you kind of wanna take the next
step up would be to go and get my book.

It's called The Simple Three Step
Process that ensures direct mail success.

Remember we talked about list offer media.

So we have a book that
covers list offer media.

You can just go to my name with my
middle initial, so travis a lee.com.

That'll get you a book.

It's four bucks with shipping,
you know, so it's real low cost.

Um, but that would kind of be the
next step up if you want to see.

How we do these things and really see what
that three step process looks like and how

we think about creating these campaigns.

That would be the next
place for you to go.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Fantastic.

Well, I would really recommend that
anybody interested in doing something

that really makes an impact and increases
return on investment for ad spend.

I think this is a great.

Avenue.

So thank you so much for
joining us today, Travis.

Travis Lee: you, Reid.

Thanks for the invite.

Great chatting with you.

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