Inside Marketing with MarketSurge

Speaker: Welcome to Inside
Marketing With Market Surge.

Your front row seat to the
boldest ideas and smartest

strategies in the marketing game.

Your host is Reed Hansen, chief
Growth Officer at Market Surge.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Hello
and welcome back to Inside

Marketing with Market Surge, and
today we've got a powerhouse in

the world of law and business.

That's Matt Hines.

He's not just the founder of one of
Georgia's most recognized personal

injury law firms, Hines Law, but also
a serial entrepreneur, marketing mind,

and leader who scaled a high-trust
service business in a competitive market.

From starting his firm in 2004
to now running multiple locations

with a massive client base.

Matt's built more than just a practice.

He's built a brand.

Today we're going behind the
scenes, how he markets, how he

leads, and how he keeps growing in
a space where trust is everything.

Buckle up.

This one's not just for lawyers.

It's for anyone building a business
that needs to stand out and scale.

Smart.

Let's go.

Welcome Matt.

Matt Hines: Wow.

Thank you very much, Reid.

It's a pleasure to be here, man.

That's a hell of an introduction.

I'm impressed.

I'm feeling pretty good right now.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: thanks.

I, had a little assistance.

Matt Hines: That's good stuff.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Well, well,
you know, I really appreciate you coming

on and you know, I, I know you're a
great host of your own podcast as well.

I didn't mention that.

Um, and you were kind enough to have
me on, so I wanted to do it right.

Uh,

so you've been running
your firm since 2004.

Can you take us back to the beginning and
how you decided that you wanted to go?

And build your own firm rather
than work for somebody else.

Matt Hines: So I graduated
law school in oh four.

Like you said, I had actually
started the LLC and formed the

company before I passed the bar.

At first I got into law because I thought
law would make me a better businessman

because if I knew legal consequences,
then I could make a better business

decision, whether it was contract
or purchasing companies, whatever.

Um, that was my logic.

And when I got into law school, I
liked the law and I realized the law.

Gave me a trade that
I could use on my own.

I could start my own company and build
that rather than going to work for a large

company, which I was, I thought about
doing, my dad had done it successfully,

and I was, well, I guess I'll do that.

That was just kind of the default result.

Uh, but I wasn't passionate about it.

It was just, well, I guess
I'll go into business.

And so I, I'd say.

Second or third year law school.

Um, I did a four year law program.

It's normally three.

I did four 'cause I did an
MBA and law combined program.

And, um, yeah, I just, I
liked that independence.

I wanted to grow something and
yeah, I guess it all made sense.

I liked the entrepreneurial aspect.

I like the law, just the,
that knowledge itself.

So it was a good combination.

So that's how it all started

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Matt Hines: back before.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Well, and
that tell might be the MB MBA in

the jd, you know, that combination.

You know, I, I, um, have met
a few that have done that, uh,

route and, um, yeah, a lot of them
have built some great businesses.

Um.

Uh, now, when you were starting out, what
were some of your biggest challenges?

Was it the getting the clients,
getting your operations right?

Uh, you know, were there challenges
around branding and name recognition?

What, what would you say that

Matt Hines: Yeah.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: challenge?

Matt Hines: That's a good question.

My biggest challenge at
first was getting clients.

Yeah.

Because I'm from South Carolina
originally, and I had started the practice

in Georgia where I went to law school
and I didn't have all my parents' friends

and my buddies from high school that
I could just sort of really open the

floodgates and let 'em all start calling.

I really didn't know anybody.

Um, so I knew I had to like just get
out and create some sort of a name.

So I was on the phone a lot.

I was having lunches a lot.

I was waking up on the weekends
and putting up little stake

signs all over the highways.

I was doing anything I could to get the
name out and uh, I had a routine down.

Because I'd know when the city
would come by and clean up all my

signs, so I knew when to go back
out and stick 'em back up again.

But I was doing any sort of
cheap marketing because I did

not have money for Google.

I didn't have money, certainly for like
commercials and billboards and all that.

That was a long off.

So, uh, getting clients was
my problem and I was broke.

it was stressful.

the first year and a half or so was hard.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Hmm.

Matt Hines: I'd love to say.

It was so exciting and every
day I woke up and was just so

anxious for that kill or what?

No, I was scared.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Matt Hines: I was scared most of the time.

I was broke.

I was scared.

I did not want to go back to my
parents and tell 'em that I failed.

I had that freaking gnawing fear.

'cause my mom was like, why don't you
just work for somebody for a while, man?

And there's logic in that.

But I was nowhere near that in my mind.

That to me would've been like
going to prison or something.

It was just not an option.

So I was not interested.

I would've rather fail on my own at that.

That's how I was thinking then.

So, uh, yeah, getting clients and
just having enough money to build

the practice at first was bad.

And I had a few guys that I met and
one was a financial advisor and he'd

send me wills, and that's a very easy.

It's not expensive, but it's, it's
important for people and I could do it.

'cause when I got out law school,
like most schools, when you get

out, you don't know anything.

You got a degree on a piece of
paper, but you don't know shit.

Excuse my language, the MBA's the same.

You think a master's in business
administration just master

business, but they don't,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Right.

Matt Hines: So, uh, it was a lot of
just going out, experimenting and seeing

what worked and then doing more of that.

Three or four people who just, I
don't know if they felt bad for

me, but they've supported me and
they would, call me up happy that

they had something to send to me.

'cause they knew I was
hungry and desperate.

So, uh, yeah, that was
the struggle at first.

And then about two years into it,
we hit the real estate sort of boom.

That was back before the 2008 crash.

And, uh, real estate was big because
that subprime market that we've probably

seen movies about and all that crashed,
that was when it was just taking off and

real estate closings were everywhere.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Hmm.

Matt Hines: And we hit
that and we grew fast.

Um, within like a year and a half,
I went from one little office

in a closet really to almost the
entire floor of an office building.

And that sounds like,
wow, Matt, that's great.

But it was stressful.

It was because I made that mistake.

I don't know if you've
been there everywhere.

I had one main client, it was
like 95% of my business and 5%

these other little random ones.

and that one client was finicky
and they could change quick.

And I was completely dependent on that.

And then that day came where
they fired me and I was flying

high and then I crashed hard.

We actually went in bankruptcy in 2008

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Hmm.

Matt Hines: So a lot of learning
packed into a little bit of time to

do, because I knew when I got out I
was ambitious, but I did not have the

management or legal skill to really do it.

I didn't know how to manage people.

I didn't know how to set targets.

I didn't know how to run an office.

I didn't know how to organize it.

I just knew more money seemed to be
the right thing and I was just going,

we weren't illegal or anything, but
I didn't have a good process, man.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Well, you know, that's interesting.

I've actually been in that situation
at a, previous agency where I was An

executive and, fortunately this wasn't
my client, but you know, same thing.

The rug got pulled out from underneath us.

Uh, we'd invested in a commercial
property that, you know, we

were building it to grow.

And so we occupied about a third of the
space we were renting and, momentarily,

we were all of a sudden out you know,
about 40% of our business and, you

know, trying to figure that out.

So it's, you know, that's a real problem.

things as you're thinking
about growing your business.

One is, you know, you are a lawyer
but you're also leading a business.

How do you balance, doing the law
work and leading the business?

where do you make decisions
about where do I delegate?

Where do I, hire other attorneys?

what's the decision making process there?

Matt Hines: That's a
good question too, man.

At first,

like right now, I am mainly involved
in management and marketing.

that's where my energy's
focused in this company.

Um, at first.

I did everything of course,
'cause that's how it is.

I'm the only person.

And then I got help in the legal
department, which is getting,

preparing files and stuff.

And I hired a marketing person
that was full-time marketer.

Um.

Uh, female.

Good talker, pretty, and she went around.

She's a really good girl and she'd go
around and create interest for our company

and she'd set up lunches and stuff for me
and that, so I needed, those are the two

main areas in the company that I needed to
focus on the most was the delivery of the

service and the marketing and promotion.

And then there's other
areas as the company grows.

There's different deficiencies
and weaknesses based on its size.

I don't know if you've seen that
or agree with that, but for me,

the first hurdle was marketing.

And so I hired to help in that area
so that I could be the attorney more.

And because at first you like you go
market and then you get some interest

from clients and then you go deliver the
service, but you stop marketing and you

gotta do this balancing back and forth.

Thing.

That's tough, but that's just how
it is in the beginning when you're,

when you're doing your own company.

So, uh, I hired to help in the
marketing and that, that was great,

that that was a successful move.

'cause she was great, she was successful.

Uh, made a lot of good contacts for
us and I could then jump back and

forth, but keep each one moving,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: You know,

Matt Hines: know.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: like what,
what I hear too, and I, I think this is

a common thread in a lot of, uh, very
successful businesses I've seen, is that

you start out with, uh, trying to meet
people and, and reach people directly.

You were making contacts,
making, uh, individual meetings.

Um, I think a lot of entrepreneurs make
the mistake of, well, here, let me throw

a lot of money at, um, channels where
I won't have to interact with people.

You know, it's like, let me just
put out ads, let me, um, and I

think that's hard as an unknown.

And, um, do think businesses remain
successful as they have very active

leaders, active salespeople that are.

Uh, talking directly to people
rather than, uh, kind of

delegating it to a channel.

Um, tell me about what have been the
most successful marketing efforts

you've, you've engaged in, you know,
I think you've described a few, but

have there been any particular, uh,
approaches that have worked for you?

From a marketing standpoint?

Matt Hines: Right now
it is personal contact.

Like you said, we have a sales team
of about 10 people and they're going

out meeting and I go out and meet
some, but they are mainly just out in

the community, creating contacts and
redirecting attention back to our firm.

That's one.

And right now social media
has been very good for us too.

But it's funny, like I was talking to
one of our consultants the other day.

He's like, Matt, anything will
work if you just do it really hard.

he's got a client who kills it.

TikTok alone.

TikTok, but a massive TikTok,
but not like a thousand bucks.

More like a hundred thousand.

And another guy's just killing it on
meta and then another guy's killing it

on Google, and that's like all they do.

Another guy's killing it on radio.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Hmm.

Matt Hines: And I'm not saying that's
the truth or not, but I mean, I think,

uh, you know, we've really gone all out
on those areas of sales team and direct

contact and social media, and then we
dabble with Google and some others.

Um, I keep telling myself I'm gonna
do more in Google, but I haven't yet.

But, um, yeah, 'cause those two and it
historically, it has been, like you said.

Going out and meeting, whether
it was me or me and my sales

team, that's been our best

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

Matt Hines: since the beginning.

That has helped us grow consistently.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Well, I,
you know, I'm a, I'm a big believer

in that and, uh, you know, though,
I run a digital marketing agency, I

just don't think it's quite complete
without the, you know, the networking.

Um.

you know, I, Matt, I'm, I'm also
curious, you know, you had me on

your podcast, which was fantastic.

Um, you do such a great job
with production and prep.

How has that impacted your business?

Um, do you feel like that's been
an effective channel for you?

Uh, you know, what would you
say to others that are exploring

a podcast for their business?

Matt Hines: It's been alright,
so we're, I'm still young.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Matt Hines: I don't have like five years
of experience to compare my numbers and

how we've grown and that kind of a thing.

Um.

I will say this, doing podcasts
and interviewing and meeting

people has been so much more
fun than I imagined it would be.

I didn't realize how fun it was.

'cause some things you just do because
they're gonna help the company,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Right.

Matt Hines: not necessarily fun.

Uh, the podcast has been a lot of fun.

Uh, but I do have, I
think, brand recognition.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Hmm.

Matt Hines: does not give me direct leads.

Brand recognition, name recognition.

You know, we put these clips all
over our law firm, Facebook and

my personal Facebook and Meta
and all Instagram and TikTok.

And so we use it to promote my name
and the company's name, and I do

believe that's been successful.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

Matt Hines: I would recommend
everybody do, I think a lot of

people do have podcasts these days,
but I'm a big fan of podcasts.

I think it's helped our company.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

And I agree with you.

and especially your point of it has
not yielded direct leads for me.

I thought maybe it would at the beginning,
like I tap into these niche audiences.

that really hasn't been the
case, but, um, it has been pretty

effective at helping, recast.

Myself and my team as consultants, you
know, people we can bounce ideas off

of, have interesting discussions bring,
creativity to some of these engagements.

And with many of my clients, we've
turned, these into opportunities

for, additional work together.

And, um, you know, so the
value has been kind of like.

recasting us and, you know, I
think it's been really great.

so, you know, when we're talking about
like high touch marketing channels,

I'm curious, especially from your
perspective running a law firm,

how is AI affecting your business?

And then, we'll talk about the marketing
in a second, but how is it affecting.

what you're doing.

Are you seeing people consider,
weighing hiring somebody like

you or your firm against?

can I just AI generate my will or, can I
just have my questions answered by chat?

GPT?

Are you seeing much of that,
or is that still a ways away?

Matt Hines: I haven't seen that yet.

I think the ways away, like our market,
I don't think, is inclined to do the ai.

We work a lot with the Hispanic
community and they like to have

somebody that they trust dealing
with their legal issues and all.

So I don't think they would be comfortable
negotiating with an insurance company

just based on what Chappie told them.

So we're kind of lucky in that area.

the white market might be leaning to that.

But honestly, man, we've been
worried about it to be frank.

but I have not seen a big reduction.

Ai, I'm a big fan of ai.

I think AI is fascinating.

I mean, we're exploring AI in
every division within our company.

We're doing something either
assisting us or replacing something.

and we're good it successfully.

for instance, I'll say one, I
won't get too technical, but we

draft what's called demand letters.

And I don't have to go into detail for
you to understand this purpose of this,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: on the

Matt Hines: so we,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: end
of demand letters, so I know it.

Matt Hines: yeah.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge:
They're talking about,

Matt Hines: Alright.

So it's a letter to an insurance
company and It details a lot about what

happened to the client, the injuries,
the cost, and what we're demanding,

kind of how to settle the case.

Our target used to be 40 a week.

We struggled to get that and we
had numerous people doing that,

in that demand writing department.

And uh, we then started using an AI
and you could do like 60 in a two days.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: wow.

Matt Hines: So that's one example
of where it worked really well.

Another example though is we tried
to do it on some marketing and

it's like, it doesn't quite do it.

It's like ai.

Almost gets it, but not quite.

It's not good enough to just replace it.

So, um, I see, we see that a lot
kind of, I, I call it the 80% rule.

It's like AI can do it about 80%, but
it doesn't do it quite good enough

to just replace what you were doing,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Matt Hines: they say.

Future, and I don't necessarily
want it to certain areas.

I'll say me personally, I've,
uh, gone on chat GPT and drawn up

contracts on my own, whereas earlier
I would've gone to an attorney.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

Matt Hines: I think there's
different areas of law that

can more easily be replaced.

I don't think all attorneys are
gonna be replaced, um, at all.

You just, you need that certainty,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: yeah.

Matt Hines: you know?

when you actually are representing a
document to another company and you have

no idea if that document says what it
really needs to say, that's kind of risky.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Well, I guess my hope is, you
know, as a non-lawyer, but often an

often, uh, client of, uh, lawyers.

that AI might somehow enable some of
these processes when they go to court

to speed up or, you know, if that's
at all a possibility, that that would,

make everybody's lives a lot better.

Matt Hines: Yeah.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: you
know, like reviewing or something,

you know, whatever, whatever.

Wherever it can fit.

so I think that's a great
example of, you know, where AI

may fit and where it doesn't.

Um, I just an observation, you know,
Matt, I could see how your brand really

thrives on like your personality, your
gregariousness, and I don't think any

way you could replace that with ai I,
I've been using AI content, but mostly

I keep it somewhat under the radar.

You know, I create some helpful
guides, things like that.

But, I'm mostly doing it to satisfy
the algorithms, let the robots talk

to the algorithms and, do that because
I understand the frequency that these

algorithms really like, whether it's.

For, you know, Google's search or,
even getting ranked in these LLMs.

And so I use it mostly for
quantity, not for quality.

And, that's been my approach.

Just can't replace having your face on the
content or having your real voice on it.

Matt Hines: That's right.

I agree.

That's a good way to put it.

When you need quantity,
AI is good quality.

It's not there yet.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Right,

Matt Hines: We've got, I'd love, you
know, we have a lot of people that we

hire and train to make sure they give
great customer service It would be great.

There's AI software right now that
will talk to clients and we've tested

about three different ones and it's
like, no, it kind of, again, it takes

it about 80, 85% there, but that
last 15% makes us look bad and I just

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Matt Hines: didn't do it yet.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge:
I agree completely.

You know, we have a system
that unknown callers.

are answered by our voice ai,
if they're known to us, they'll

be directed directly to us.

But, the unknown callers, 99.999%

of the time are, robo callers.

it is funny.

We'll get a transcript.

It's robots talking to robots

Matt Hines: Oh.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: just they
go back and forth and sometimes

the one won't recognize the other.

it's quite entertaining.

Matt Hines: I am with you there.

We use that too.

And for after hour phone answering.

we have AI and all, but,
uh, just to replace client

communication, AI is not there yet.

It's just something you have
to, you really need a human.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: yeah.

Matt Hines: I was working with,
they helped out in, Airbnb

management, something like that.

All they did was ai.

You could tell they
were a numbers company.

They did not care about customer service.

I was their customer at
time and they did not care.

It was all ai.

If you called, you talk to an
AI bot and it's frustrating.

It's, AI is not there yet.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah,

Matt Hines: Thankful.

'cause once it gets there, I don't know.

It's just, it is gonna
be a game changer or

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Matt Hines: don't know.

I don't have the big AI fear
that a lot of people are pushing.

Maybe I'm not, but I don't know.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: No, I,
I'm mostly optimistic, you know,

and I recognize the limitations.

I think I needed to spend some time
with it and try a lot of things

to feel that degree of confidence.

But, um.

you know, it feels like, you know, as much
as it's improving that, that gap between,

like real human empathy and, you know,
robotic precision is, it is just so vast.

Like, it can make exponential
improvements and it'll still be

really far away from feeling like it's
something I can relate to, you know,

or, you know, I really feel heard.

Matt Hines: Yeah, I,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: worth.

Matt Hines: I did a, uh, a company
had sent us about a 30 page contract.

Uh, ran it through Jet GPT, attached
it and said, can you tell me.

Where this contract is weak and is
in favor of the blah, blah, blah.

That was awesome.

Now, that would probably be a three or
four hour attorney job that might cost,

I don't know, 2,500 bucks a lot of money.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Right.

Matt Hines: They chat.

GPT, spit out the most beautiful analysis

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Matt Hines: Yeah.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah,

Matt Hines: Yeah.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: could
totally envision that, you know,

the, it's data parsing capabilities
and, and analytical things.

I think that's a great use case.

Uh, well, Matt, one last question.

If you were, you know, say in 2025 today,
Say you have your full knowledge from all

your experience building your business,
but you were asked to start over.

Uh, what would you do?

Would you do anything
differently than you've done?

are there particular channels that you see
are, are more relevant now than they were?

Or, you know, how would you approach
building a firm from scratch?

Matt Hines: I don't know that
I'd have done anything different

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Hmm.

Matt Hines: other than just
doing more of what I was doing.

Mark it a little bit harder.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Hmm.

Matt Hines: Uh, more of it, you
know, I remember when I started

off, I would set targets for myself.

Like, I need to see this many people each
week and this many lunches this week.

And.

Starting a company's hard

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Matt Hines: and it takes you, you think
that it's like X amount of effort needed

to achieve this result, and it's like 10
times or 50 times that amount of effort

and it just takes longer and it takes
more money and it takes more blood, sweat,

and tears than you originally thought.

So I don't know.

We were doing a podcast one time,
and I said, so what's your advice?

This was an entrepreneur, very successful.

What's your advice to everybody?

And he said, just stay busy.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Hmm.

Matt Hines: You know?

It wasn't like.

Do save your money or spend more on
marketing or hire the right people

or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Maybe all that's important, but his
advice was stay busy, stay in action.

And I could not agree more.

Just go, go, go, go, go.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Matt Hines: maybe I could
gone faster than I did.

Um, but I don't know that I
would change my approach any.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Okay.

No, that's, that's great to hear.

And you know, I love to hear that
there are principles that are in spite

of the technology changes and, the
other economic changes we've seen.

I am, really encouraged
to hear that, Matt.

Uh, it's great to hear your expertise
and, I think you're so impressive.

You're the firm you've built
and the podcast you have.

Um, if people would like to work with
you or maybe have you as a podcast

guest or consult with you, what are
the best places to reach you at?

Matt Hines: All right.

Thanks, Reid.

The web law firm websites
is Hines law.org.

Somebody up in Michigan got my
dot Law, H-I-N-E-S-L-A w.org.

That's just our law firm website.

Hines on Air, H-I-N-E-S-O-N-A-I-R.

That's the name of our podcast.

Love to have you listen there and
comment, but that would be a good

place to get in touch with us.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Matt, I
look forward to future conversations.

You've been, uh, you know,
fantastic to collaborate with

and I think we've learned a lot.

Matt Hines: All right.

Well listen, it's an honor
to be on your program, man.

Thanks for your time.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: you.

Matt Hines: Yes, sir.

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