Inside Marketing with MarketSurge

Welcome to Inside Marketing
With Market Surge.

Your front row seat to the
boldest ideas and smartest

strategies in the marketing game.

Your host is Reed Hansen, chief
Growth Officer at Market Surge.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Hello again.

Welcome back to Inside
Marketing with Market Surge.

On today's episode, we're joined by Paula
Keoki, veteran marketer, data evangelist

and founder and CEO of Outward Media.

Since 1998, Paula has built one of the
industry's largest B2B databases that

include 18 million plus businesses, 140
million plus contacts with a 95% accuracy

guarantee, helping organizations turn
raw data into repeatable revenue engines.

A Former Dun and Bradstreet strategist
and Forbes Agency Council member,

she's here to share how the right data
strategy can supercharge targeting,

personalization and measurement
in any B2B go to market playbook.

Paula, welcome to the podcast.

Paula Chiocchi: Thank you Reed.

Happy to be here.

I

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: and it's

Paula Chiocchi: wanna qu, I
wanna, I wanna qualify that 95.

95% is the accuracy on
the email contact address.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Perfect.

Perfect.

Paula Chiocchi: Yeah.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: you

Paula Chiocchi: We guarantee that.

We guarantee that.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: important parts,

Paula Chiocchi: Yeah.

The important part, the contact.

Yes.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: exactly.

Well, you know, that is a, a tremendous
value and you know, as somebody that

deals in data B2B data, um, I know
that's really difficult to, to do.

So you have a great process clearly.

you know, if we could jump into.

You know, the world of data a bit.

So what would you say some of the most
common dirty data pitfalls, I just,

you know, I borrowed this phrase.

Uh, what are some of those pitfalls
that you see and how do they

undermine campaign performance?

Paula Chiocchi: Well, if the contact is
matched to the wrong company, which we

see, uh, not, not for us specifically, but
we have controls and processes for that.

But if you have the wrong contact
at the wrong at, you know, at the, a

contact at the wrong company, you got
a problem because you're not targeting,

uh, the correct business or person.

And then secondarily, with the contacts.

What, uh, we brought on that 95%
guarantee Reed because it cut through

the noise of everybody saying, we've
got all these millions of contacts.

Well, are they accurate?

Okay, so we, we.

Okay.

That's why we put the
guarantee in our contract.

We put our money where our mouth is.

I mean, we are gonna guarantee you that
these contacts are accurate and they're

properly matched, and then that's what
outcome creates the outcome of the ROI.

Okay, so if, if you, you mentioned
30 data, if, if your database

is 30% wrong, your in-house
data or data that you license.

Uh, look at the waste from
programmatic to social, to

email marketing, to direct mail.

I mean, people are using
all those channels.

Uh, you have huge waste.

And then that's going to directly impact
the ROI outcome of your, of your campaign.

So the starting with that
contact being correctly matched

and accurate is, is huge.

It's big.

It's important.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: So, you
know, and, and to underline your

point, I've been a customer of, uh,
buying B2B data in the past and, um.

Uh, you know, I, I've, I've
pursued a variety of sources,

including, you know, hiring a VA
to scrape off of LinkedIn or, um.

You know, uh, know, I get like a dozen
emails every day offering to sell

me B2B data, you know, anonymous.

Right.

And, um, you know, never
with any sort of guarantee.

And, and I've done it a few
times and, and in each case

I've had very high miss rates.

And

Paula Chiocchi: Okay.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: it's, it's
rare to get that quality of data.

Um.

You know, I don't know if you
can pull back the curtain at all.

And, uh, just, just out of
curiosity, is there, um, can

you talk through your process?

Like how, how are you able
to achieve those high rates?

Like what, what, uh, you
know, what, what's, what

Paula Chiocchi: 12th.

We, we process probably 50, 60
million opt-in registrations a month.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

Paula Chiocchi: Okay.

And then what what we do is basically
we're B2B focused, but we match between

the B2B and the residential or the
personal address, uh, information.

We match all that together, but then
we use, we have, we developed our

own technologies to actually go out
onto the web and verify them within.

Social profiles.

Okay.

Is that really where that person
works and who they say they are.

Uh, so it's a little bit of
proprietary technology that

we built to help foster that.

And then your basic hygiene that it
probably every data company does.

We, we, obviously we include
that as well, but I, I think that

that's the main focus is that,
that we built that specific process

technology wise to accomplish that.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: That's

Paula Chiocchi: And it's working.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Well, and you know.

Uh, you know, having a proprietary
technology and, and advanced matching

is obviously really important.

You know, used to be that, uh, we
were able to create, say, in, in meta

ads, like lookalike audiences very
easily using, uh, cookie tracking.

And, know, for instance in, in
Europe, that's nearly impossible now.

Um.

Paula Chiocchi: Right,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: And,

Paula Chiocchi: right.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: in the
US it's, uh, like, I mean, I think

we go back and forth and, you know,
we, um, there's definitely forces

that would, would like to eliminate
those and, and others that don't.

so, so, so the cookie, the cookie
po potential is definitely in

flux or maybe going away if we
don't know, how, so how should B2B

marketers balance building their own?

First party data sets just based
on their own sales data or own, um,

web data versus licensing sources
from a third party like yourself.

Paula Chiocchi: Well, first party
day is obviously the most important.

It's your customer, right?

But,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Paula Chiocchi: uh, but typically for
most companies, they want more customers.

So you can't just rely on that.

So you mentioned the lookalikes.

Um, with respect to outside of the
country, yes, it is a problem because

you have to have complete total opt-in
to be able to use any record, uh,

outside the us and so that fosters you.

Taking a look at the company that maybe
by, from an IP address and then just

making a guess by function title as
to which contacts to, uh, send your

messaging and your advertising to,
which probably has about 30% waste.

Mm-hmm.

Is what we figured out domestically.

Not, not, not as tough.

Right.

Because, uh, you don't have to have that.

Explicit opt-in.

Um, you mentioned building the audiences.

Uh, we totally believe in
building lookalike audiences.

You mentioned 'em in meta.

Meta is kind of the black
box where you kind of have to

just depend on them to do it.

But whereas with LinkedIn, uh, what
we're doing for our clients and

agencies is building the actual
audience, a custom audience, and

then that gets put into LinkedIn.

So you're not using LinkedIn's, uh.

This is what I want industry wise,
contact wise, what have you, geo wise.

And then you have no idea
where the advertising went.

If you have the custom audience
built and then you upload it into

LinkedIn, you know who the audience is

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Mm-hmm.

Paula Chiocchi: know how
to do the matchback for the

ROI of the sales, et cetera.

And you know, we've had as high
as 75% match rates to LinkedIn.

So that's pretty strong.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge:
That, that is really strong.

And, um, so, so let, let's talk
about some of the, um, specifics.

Now, obviously contact
information is super.

Helpful.

You know, and that's, that's
where you have to start.

You know, if you can't, if you can't
reach deliverability, then, you know,

throw, throw everything else out.

What, um, what are some of the
other enrichment signals or

other, um, other fields that
would include like intent data or.

And, uh, you know, a footprint on other
sites or even a, a history of purchase.

What, what other signals deliver
the biggest lift in conversion

rates and just in your experience,

Paula Chiocchi: Well, I think the main
one we're involved in is the intent there.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: okay.

Paula Chiocchi: That's the main
one we're, we're involved in.

And then also you mentioned
the tracking from the website.

So we, we totally believe in being
able to match that IP address.

A lot of times it's a company
because we're B2B focused.

Right.

So, um, and then from there we can kind
of, again, it gets back to the assumption,

uh, as to who the, who that contact is.

Uh.

Those are the main ones
right now we're seeing.

But I guess what we're seeing is, is a, is
an increase in just using the ai, right?

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

Paula Chiocchi: To help, help
refine what you're doing.

I dunno if that helped you or not.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah, it does.

And um, you know, maybe we can
talk a little bit more about that.

the, you know, is the ai, um, are, are
you able to participate in your client's

campaigns in terms of, uh, see the returns
and see the, those, um, conversions?

Do you get data back periodically from

Paula Chiocchi: Some,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

Paula Chiocchi: some will
just say, yeah, we'll do it.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge:
Yeah, that's a great signal.

Paula Chiocchi: Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

They're how great.

Uh, so, uh, but some do actually give us
the, the, uh, metrics, you know, you know,

what uh, how many visitors, how many,
what have the revenue that they generate

and sales they have that, uh, et cetera.

So then we can kind of mold that moving
forward for, for the next campaigns.

But, but some are real proprietary
and they just say that, you

know, that it did work out.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

Yeah.

Paula Chiocchi: Yeah.

And I think it when the ones that share.

It's awesome because it kind of helps us
know how to keep moving it forward and.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yes, yes.

now, you know, as far as the, uh,
you know, you've worked with a

lot of different technologies, um.

say I'm a, I'm a B2B organization, would
you say are the key categories of tools

that I, I would need to have in place
to really leverage good data to, you

know, to market with it, to sell with it?

Um, what would, what would
you recommend somebody that's

starting out that have in place

Paula Chiocchi: That's a good question.

'cause what we're seeing is,
especially in the larger companies,

is they may have like 10 tech stacks
they're not using, but maybe one.

Feature or whatever, or or
aspect or module per tech stack.

And they're spending millions of dollars.

So, and I, and then what we're seeing is
some of 'em are collapsing those down and,

and not having as much technology 'cause
especially since they're not using it.

So I would say in particular is
your, uh, CRM is very important.

Because one of the things you can use
AI is to also help you, um, set up

the nurture tracks where the human
hasn't, doesn't have to physically do

it themselves based on the response
and the, the, the, the journey that

that particular quote prospect is,
is, is leading, is, is going to.

So it's definitely huge prop.

Obviously CRM is very important.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, that

Paula Chiocchi: Yeah.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: a lot of sense.

And you know, and I, I.

Uh, probably worth noting that,
know, once you procure this data,

um, you can absolutely match it.

So you'd be, so you're acquiring
a list of people with intent.

Um, and then there would be tremendous
value in matching that versus your

existing, uh, client database to see
if there were any, any matches and

overlap and, and, of course this could
be used for creating audiences in.

In ads, uh, you know, those direct
ads or programmatic, um, you know,

and so it's like you can buy the data
once and use it in a lot of different,

Paula Chiocchi: Yes,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: marketing

Paula Chiocchi: yes.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Even

Paula Chiocchi: Yeah,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah,

Paula Chiocchi: yeah, absolutely.

Even print, um, uh, the
model is kind of like.

All you can use versus all you can eat.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: yeah.

Paula Chiocchi: You know, you can
use it as, as much as you want

if, if you did a data license.

So that could be used as you mentioned,
programmatic, social email, marketing,

print, direct, direct mail, anything.

Uh, so that's the best efficiency
cost wise, is to go that way.

But a lot of times what customers
wanna do is they wanna test, you

know, test it out before they.

Off the whole licensing
model and that's fine.

You know that that works too.

Uh, but to back up a little bit on
intent, 'cause we've done so many.

So many, uh, campaigns where
we do basic, no intent.

Intent.

And then one client had an
overlay of, uh, advertising spend.

How much were these companies
spending on advertising?

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Hmm.

Paula Chiocchi: And so if
we had a response rate.

I think it was right around the 10.

It was a well-known brand, 10%
response rate on the nothing overlay.

When we went to the intent, it doubled.

It was like 23%, and then when they had
the advertising overlay, which is data

that they bought, it jumped to 35%.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Oh wow.

Paula Chiocchi: Yeah.

So, you know, adding on those
e extra areas of, of honing in

on these individuals and how
they're responding, et cetera.

And the intent plus the,
uh, what they've purchased.

'cause you mentioned that before, uh,
creates more and more ROI on the back end.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Well,

Paula Chiocchi: Not, not that 10% was bad,
but, I mean, but if you can double it.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Yeah.

And well, and, uh, it provides
additional touch points and people

tend to need, whether it's the
authority that comes from seeing the

brand in multiple places, or, or, or
the reminders or, you know, the, um.

Or the way they learn about a brand.

Uh, it, it seems to really benefit from
being on multiple platforms, seeing

it in different places, and that, uh,
turn makes, it, makes the, the journey

a little bit more, um, effective
for, uh, for a lot of these clients.

Paula Chiocchi: I totally agree with you.

What, what I would say is, is I'm not a
big fan of the last touch attribution.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Ah,

Paula Chiocchi: know,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Paula Chiocchi: I'm not, I don't know
if you are, but I, I, I feel like

it's all together, you know, and, and
whether they got a direct mail piece

and then later they hit the, clicked
on the programmatic ad or whatever,

they got that direct mail piece.

Okay.

Or they received an email,
and to me it should be.

More blended because that,
it's that experience all Aaron,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

And actually, I agree with you.

I, I think that, um, you know, definitely
a metric you should collect, but it, um.

You know, you do need to account for all
the touch points because, and, and, and

the sum, because, uh, it's usually an
aggregation of multiple factors that, that

push people into a, a sale rather than,

Paula Chiocchi: right?

But, but, but.

What you have is sometimes, and
especially in the larger companies, is

why did the email campaign and that's
where the final sale came in, you know,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Right?

Paula Chiocchi: it's like

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Yeah.

A little

Paula Chiocchi: Fight for budget, right?

Yeah.

Fight for budget, you know, but it's,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Email team's
doing their job, like where's the

Paula Chiocchi: yeah, that's right.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Um,
well, so, you know, you're based

in California and, um, I'm, I'm
painfully aware that California does

have some very strict privacy laws
around, uh, you know, opting in.

And, um, and so, you know, we're
always very careful, especially

with the, the phone of it.

But, um, not limited to
that, you know, email can be.

can pose some financial risk
if, if you do this incorrectly.

So there's, you know, the GDPR
and CCPA, uh, set of regulations.

would you tell somebody
that is trying to market?

Um, you know, you know, and, and.

Prevent, prevent some loss or fines from
violating these, these legislation acts.

Um, and, and avoid that kind of
risk, you know, 'cause we're doing

this in mass and you know, how do
we, how do we protect ourselves?

Paula Chiocchi: Well, I
think it's mostly relevant.

Pretty much with email marketing
more so than say, programmatic

ad serving, um, for us.

I mean, that's why we have opt-in
consent on, on, on the file.

Uh, so it's very important, and I
don't know if you're familiar with

this, but there are so many companies
now and they're like, it's almost

like cottage industry at this stage
that, um, are just saying, remove my

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Paula Chiocchi: Right?

And we're flooded with those every day.

Uh, now you have to do that.

If they give you the right information.

If they give you your name, address,
and email, then you have to remove that.

If they just give you a name, Susan
Smith, you don't have to, but you have

to be very diligent about that because
that's where the, the potentially be sued.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Right.

Paula Chiocchi: And, and
then you don't want that.

So I, if you're looking for a data
supplier, is what did they stand behind?

What did they guarantee?

What did they say?

That, how the database is built on.

And that should be part of the, the
contract negotiation in order to protect

yourself as a user of the data from
potential, uh, misuse or of data that

they're, you're not supposed to be using.

And that's very critical, very critical.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Well, and, and probably underscores
the point of dealing with a responsible

vendor like yourself versus somebody that
screen scrapes, um, you know, without

regard to any of the, of those databases.

Paula Chiocchi: Yeah, not good.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: yeah.

Yeah.

Paula Chiocchi: So if, if, if they
can't give you an indication or like,

you know, we have, we publish a,
this is how we build our database.

I mean, that's a, it's
a document we publish.

If they can't give you that, I
would be, be a little bit concerned

because you wanna know how they're
building that and no, we do not

screen scrap, we don't do that.

We don't scrape websites, any of that.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: yeah, yeah.

And you know, it is like, you know,
we, we all have to do what we can.

Um, but there are.

Definitely some risks you have to
be conscious of and, and for those

that may not know you, you could.

You know, I, I haven't
faced this personally.

I, I have actually received a couple
threats in, in years past, um, not,

you know, kind of like, and I've
actually seen the same template a

couple times where they will cite
the GDPR and say like, uh, put me in

touch with your legal department for

Paula Chiocchi: Yeah,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: of this.

And, and, um, you know,
and it's, it's scary.

I, no, nobody has followed through
on anything, but, um, it, it.

You know, like you could be
at, at risk of paying hundreds

of dollars for each violation.

And, um, you know, nobody,
nobody wants to pay that.

And, um, you know, and, and you, you just
don't wanna be liable or, um, you know,

have, have to, have to deal with that,

Paula Chiocchi: How do you respond
and you respond to it, right?

I mean.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Paula Chiocchi: They, when they've
given you all the information.

'cause you know, 'cause I've checked with
our legal team and they said, look, if

they have to give you X, Y, and z, if
they just send you Sue Smith, you don't

know if she's in Minneapolis or Chicago.

I mean, you, you don't know.

So they've gotta give you that full,
full record of information and then

respond, yes, we've removed you
from the database and then keep

a record of a suppression file.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Right.

Paula Chiocchi: You know, it's
just, it's just like when you

do a campaign in particular,
email campaign for a a, a client.

Opt outs happen.

Okay,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yes.

Paula Chiocchi: so then that goes into
the, the company's suppression file,

and then it goes into our suppression
file file on behalf of the company.

So then when we do the next
campaign, we don't send those, we

can't send those another email.

And you know, as you know, you have
10 days to be able to achieve that.

Right?

To get it out of.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: right, right.

Um, now I'm curious, uh, do you.

How, how, as a, as an agency,
you know, at your company, do

you use this, this good data?

Do you, um, do you do a
lot of outreach campaigns?

Do you do, um, programmatic,
do you, um, for yourselves?

Yeah.

I'm

Paula Chiocchi: Yeah,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: curious.

Like, do you

Paula Chiocchi: we do do enough.

We do do, we do do email campaigns.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yes.

Paula Chiocchi: We, we, we
have, we have for years.

Uh, and some of them get really, really
high response rates and some don't.

So, you know, we're getting ready
to do one for, uh, agencies because

we just launched, um, is a company
called Fusion 92, that we just

launched our data in their platform,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

Paula Chiocchi: uh, where a, um.

A client or can come in or anybody
and run counts, uh, in their platform.

It's like lightning fast to develop a
programmatic or direct mail audience

is what we're offering there or
both, and then export it themselves.

Uh, like and pricing.

Everything's done right
inside the platform.

So it's pretty,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Very cool.

Paula Chiocchi: pretty exciting.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and there's just so much, mean, o
obviously with good data, with people,

with buying intent, that's exactly
who you need to be reaching out to.

Um, you know, and, and we're
able to do so much more.

Now than we were in the past.

Um, that's really enabling
marketers, which, which is fantastic.

But looking forward, based on what you
see now, what, what emerging trends

do you like, um, or, or maybe are wary
of, that might reshape the B2B data?

marketplace.

Paula Chiocchi: Well, one of the
things we're also using I AI for

Read is cleaning our data, which
is, and I'm sure our competitors are

doing the same thing, but that's.

Making us more efficient and faster.

Uh, I think using ai, 'cause I've
been having conversations with quite

a number of people about this is
not forgetting the human element.

Okay.

Uh, because I don't believe AI can
conduct itself even in copywriting,

anything like that to be human.

And even in BD marketing, you know, this.

They now are looking
for the human element.

And then with most of millennials,
they want, they wanna know what

your company stands for, you know?

Yeah.

They're into sustainability.

They're into how you
give back the community.

You have to be able to do that.

Just having copy written by AI
tools, I mean, you could start there

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Right.

Paula Chiocchi: we do, but then
we, then we, but then we go in and.

Massage it further.

Right?

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Right.

Paula Chiocchi: that, that the AI
tools are good and you, I don't

know if I say scary, but good and,
and not so good at the same time.

Good for efficiencies,
cutting back on time.

And then, but then b, know, know,
know the the, how much you can use it.

Okay.

And not lose, I mean, I'm not
sure when robots are gonna develop

feelings, at least my lifetime.

So that would be something.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: I know, just
to make sure every prompt has Please,

and thank you and it and for the future.

Um, so do you, do you anticipate,
um, you know, you know, I think one

valid complaint, and I I get this too.

I'm an outbound marketer, and, um,
is it the, the volume of outbound.

Email is, uh, very high and
people are annoyed with it.

Uh, you know, there's the, you've done
this long enough, you know that the

big email providers like Microsoft
and Google do their best to, um,

block those that send out too many
or inaccurate or, spamming emails.

Um, do what, what do you think
is next for that, do you think?

Um.

Do, do you think that we'll be
forced into doing higher quality

emails, more personalized emails?

Uh, what do you, what
do you predict there?

Paula Chiocchi: Less is gonna be more.

Less is gonna be more.

I mean, I, you know, I've been doing
this long enough to remember it was

like, oh, let's to, you know, 50 millions

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Paula Chiocchi: I mean, I'm
talking 20 years ago, you know,

but, you know, and then million or
whatever, and no more prescriptive,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Mm.

Paula Chiocchi: And then, you
know, because of the things that

you just brought up with Outlook
and, uh, and, and Google's

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Paula Chiocchi: is that, you know,
that's why we developed our own ESP.

So, so we know how to navigate those
wires and we stay on top of, uh.

What the rules of the game are, and if
they change it and they change fast.

Yeah.

So, so that you have a team of
people that stay up on that as well.

So, 'cause our deliverability typically
is usually in the 87, 90% range.

Yeah.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah,

Paula Chiocchi: And we
want it to be there.

Right.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Paula Chiocchi: uh, but now the,
the, the, the, even though you can

say you had deliverability is, is.

Is anybody actually, actually those
open and click rates actually valid.

So we developed a technology to
pull out the ones that aren't valid.

Because what was happening about
Read about a year ago is people

say, oh, I got a 50% open rate.

No you didn't.

Okay.

Nobody gets a 50% open rate on cold email.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Right.

Paula Chiocchi: then you pull
back the covers and you find

that it's the corporate servers.

Or checking the links.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Oh,

Paula Chiocchi: Okay, so, so,
and they do it fast, right?

So it's like, because they're
trying to detect malware.

Okay.

'cause it's deposit on their servers.

So what we developed a technology,
whatever you wanna call it,

technology away to say, okay, if the
links were clicked within whatever

they've programmed in 10 seconds or
whatever it is, no human does that.

And no human clicks on 10 links.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Mm-hmm.

Paula Chiocchi: In an email.

And then what we do is we remove that
from the statistics of, uh, of how the

campaign did on the open and click rate.

But we had to, we had to
learn that because it, because

it, it was crazy, you know?

No, we, there's no way you had
50% open rate or 40% click rate.

It's not happening.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Right.

Well,

Paula Chiocchi: So.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: know, the
underscores the need for, you know,

an active, uh, management system, you
know, where you're, um, reacting to

these things and because on the other
end, Google and, and Microsoft are,

um, fighting you or restricting you,
and, and you have to have to adapt.

Paula Chiocchi: You have to learn.

You have to learn.

Learn how to deal with it, and then
also you have to educate your client.

You know this, look, we're
not gonna be, if your, if your

campaign is 300,000 to be sent,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Mm-hmm.

Paula Chiocchi: it's not gonna
happen in one hour or one day.

Okay.

I mean, and, and you have
to prepare them for that.

'cause I, I actually had somebody calls us
a couple years ago and, and he says, well,

you know, I'm getting a 50% open rate.

It would, it would be from a
company that you would know.

I better do it.

We actually are friendly with,
and I said, then you should, he

didn't tell me who it was first.

I said, well then you should
stay where you're at 'cause I'm

not gonna be able to do that.

And he goes, no, I think it's all fraud.

So then when I got on the phone with him,
I said, it's not fraud, not intentional.

They just haven't figured out that now.

This is what's going on.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Yeah.

Paula Chiocchi: Because, 'cause I mean,
anybody, even, even people with no

experience knows that's not gonna happen.

You know,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: right.

Paula Chiocchi: kind of open notes,
you know, I mean, in your customer

value you would expect 40, 50%, right?

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Paula Chiocchi: To engage with
something that you're sending them like,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah, but cold
email, that's, that's, uh, unrealistic.

Paula Chiocchi: yeah.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Well, um, I,
you know, I'm excited for the future.

You know, I think AI presents a lot of
opportunities, uh, both in getting better

data, like you said, and in, uh, better
navigating the, you know, the, the, uh,

pipelines between the, the email servers.

and you know, Paul, I think it sounds
like you have a tremendous system and.

You know, I would, I would emphasize how
important it is to have with high accuracy

and, and a company that has been doing
this for a long time and can back it up.

Um, Paul, if anybody is interested
in working with you, this kind

of data, you know, getting your,
uh, your, your expertise, how

could they reach out to you?

Paula Chiocchi: Uh, they can reach out to
me personally at paula@outwardmedia.com,

or you can go to the website and we
have an ability to set a, uh, a meeting

through the calendar, uh, system
on the, on the, uh, on the website,

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Awesome.

Paula Chiocchi: up exploratory meeting.

Happy to talk to any.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge:
No, that's great.

And, and, uh, Paula, I've, uh, really
enjoyed, uh, meeting with you these last

few weeks and I, you know, I, I would
point anybody that is interested in the

best quality B2B data to go your way.

Paula Chiocchi: Thank you so much.

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