Inside Marketing with MarketSurge

Welcome to Inside Marketing
With Market Surge.

Your front row seat to the
boldest ideas and smartest

strategies in the marketing game.

Your host is Reed Hansen, chief
Growth Officer at Market Surge.

Reed: Hello, and welcome to Inside
Marketing With Market Surge.

Please join me in welcoming Pamela
Stambaugh, founder and president

of Accountability Pays, Inc.

A behavioral change master and a
certified executive coach who spent over

30 years helping CEOs and leadership
teams build cultures of trust, open

communication, and measurable results.

As a managing partner of Harrison
Assessment since 1999, Pamela brings

data-driven rigor to soft people
issues, co-authoring two books on

accountability and launching programs
like the Emerging Leader Accelerator and

Success for Time Challenged Managers.

Pamela.

Pamela Stambaugh: Thank you Reed.

Nice to be here with you.

Reed: Yeah, my pleasure.

You know, so we, we made
acquaintance over LinkedIn.

I noted your very impressive background.

I know that leadership training
is something that everybody needs

and really is, I mean, definitely
something I could benefit from.

And so I really appreciate a, a real
professional, uh, joining joining me.

Pamela Stambaugh: Thank.

Reed: Now tell me, you know, I
have a quote from, uh, from you.

You've said that who a leader is, is
being, makes a bigger difference to

discretionary effort than anything else.

So how do you define accountability
and leadership, and why is

it so often misunderstood?

Pamela Stambaugh: Well,
a great question, Reid.

So a manager is someone that has
been assigned responsibility to

produce results through other people.

And a leader is someone who shows up
in a way for their team that their

team would follow them to the moon
and back just by how they show up.

For them, right?

So if you support your team, your team
will support you and you would want for

all of you to be supporting a vision and
a mission greater than yourself, right?

Because we all wanna be a part of
something that makes a difference.

It might be, it might be building a
cathedral, but it might be building

a house or it might be, uh, you
know, take cleaning up after messes

that other people have made, right?

It's just not, not one definition
for what makes a difference.

We all want that.

Reed: Absolutely How did you get into.

Executive training and, and, uh,
you know, how did this find you?

Or did you, uh, seek
out these opportunities?

How, how did that come to be?

Pamela Stambaugh: It did find me,
so I was in an MBA program at the

University of San Diego in the eighties,
late, early, early and late eighties.

I.

And, you know, the economy wasn't
so great at that time, so I

ended up being an entrepreneur.

Unfortunately, it stuck.

It was good for me.

Um, but one of the first opportunities I
had was actually working worldwide with,

um, the Kent Blanchard companies and
helping them train their licensees around

the world in how to market their products.

And that was, I really
just fell into that.

I really did.

Uh, you know, it was being at the
right place at the right time, and

then that really was my sweet spot.

So I love to facilitate teams and then of
course I learned along the way a lot about

how to do that, uh, and, and improve.

But it's a natural affinity for me.

I like to make a difference with people.

Reed: Wonderful.

Now, you, you've been doing this a while
and, and as you mentioned early, even in

the eighties, how has about accountability
and training executives, how has that

changed considering that just about
everything else about businesses changed?

With advent of, uh, the internet
being everywhere and social media,

and now ai, how, how is what you need
to convey changed or stayed the same?

Pamela Stambaugh: I think the challenges
for leadership are so much more,

uh, intense and difficult today.

Um, that the real baseline of
being ready and effective in a

leadership position is self-care.

You might think that that's an interesting
place to start, but I've seen it over and

over and over again where, uh, you want
to be mindful and you want to be hurtful.

If you're a leader that wants to be
seen as a contribution to your team

as standing for your team, as being
available to provide the resources for

your team, and that isn't always easy.

There are, uh, forces that we don't
control having an impact over.

Everything that we might
want to control and don't.

So to be centered, I call it
accountable, awake, and aware means

to pay real close attention to what's
going on in your own inner sphere.

In the midst of all the turmoil, right?

We can call out the, the, the,
the lack of harmony in the world

today in lots of different ways.

Not hard to find that conflict.

And so staying centered, uh, the
accountable awake and aware isn't

inner game and it runs the outer game.

I.

Reed: Interesting.

Did.

So the, know, obviously you returned to
the theme of accountability When, when I

hear accountability, especially in a team
concept, you work with teams as well.

Um, do you, you know, the first
thought that comes to mind is,

um, when I want my team to be
accountable, I have to point a finger.

I have to say, um, you did
this or you are not doing this.

How do you encourage your team to
accountability, uh, without making

it a finger pointing exercise?

Pamela Stambaugh: Yeah.

Um, that's a great question, Reid.

So the way that I recommend you
do that is to have a dialogue

to say, what would you think?

What did you think the consequences,
the natural consequences would be

of the actions that you've taken.

In other words, you don't
start with a, with a finger.

You say, how were you thinking about that?

Let's get on the same page about what
your assumptions were that brought

you to whatever that action was.

If I am the leader and I'm
reacted, I'm not much good.

Right?

Reed: Right.

Pamela Stambaugh: I
don't wanna start there.

I wanna create enough space between
my upset and my conversation with

somebody that I'm not dealing with
my own upset, that I'm actually

dealing with the reality of what has
happened that needs to be dealt with.

I.

So that I can stay accountable, awake,
and aware, centered, responsible,

and not making somebody wrong.

You know, I don't remember who it was
that said this, but, but somewhere

along the line, I heard this story
about a company who lost a lot of money

because of a mistaken employee made.

And somebody said, well, are
you gonna fire that person?

He said, are you kidding?

Uh, look at what I've already invested
in their, in their learning moment.

Why would I get rid of somebody that's
been, that I've invested that much in?

So you have to think about it a
little bit differently and say,

gosh, what's the lesson here?

And, and, uh, if you correct once.

Yeah, because that's a new person, for
example, and you say, you know, that's

not how we would prefer to do it.

Let's do it this way.

And then that mistake is made.

Again, the first two times
somebody makes a mistake, you

might say, well, that's on me.

I probably wasn't clear
enough in my expectation.

And if I'm not clear on my expectation,
then I can't expect that somebody is

gonna adhere to what I wasn't clear about.

So the first time it's on me.

The second time it's on
me the third time, no.

So you, you create that grace, you create
that space for people to fail because if

people can't fail, they won't succeed.

They have to feel the freedom to make
mistakes and, and to be brought through

those mistakes to the other side.

Now, if those mistakes
repeat, shame on me.

Reed: So what about a situation
where maybe you're not the, um, the

top leader at the organization, but
you recognize that maybe you are.

Uh, that, that, that leader
might've made a mistake.

And is offloading blame, uh,
elsewhere not being accountable.

What, how, as the team member can, is
that a situation you need to exit from

or is that, you, as a team member, uh,
can you help that situation in any way?

Help increase, increase,
uh, team accountability?

Are there techniques for that?

I.

Pamela Stambaugh: Well, so I think you're
talking about speaking truth to power.

And it's not easy because sometimes
that oftentimes that person is

the one who writes the paycheck.

Yes.

Reed: Right.

I.

Pamela Stambaugh: And if it serves
the greater good, then that's

where you need to screw your
courage to the sticking point.

As Susan, what's her name would say, uh,
in the book, fierce Conversations, right.

You need to have.

Available to you.

The courage to have those
hard conversations, even

when you have to manage up,

Reed: Mm.

Pamela Stambaugh: because running from
it means that the next time something

happens, you're probably not gonna
be ready for that either, right?

If you just keep escaping, there's
a good chance that those things

will keep happening and that
you'll be impacted by those, and

rather than calling in, uh, reason.

And being a, a champion for good,
you're just an escape artist, and

it, it never turns out well for you
or for the people that you didn't

have truth conversations with.

Reed: Yeah, you know, over the course
of my career, so, um, I'm at the point

where I'm, I'm kind of halfway between.

Between, um, people I work with are,
um, older than me or have a, uh, older

generation and, and also younger than me.

Um, you know, generational.

There's, there's real differences
between generations and Uh, you

know, and, and different ways that
they like different, maybe different

tendencies or, or, uh, cultures.

Is this something that you
need to be, cognizant of and

take a different approach?

Or is it something that you should
disregard and that there are

universal principles that apply?

Uh, regardless.

I, I don't, how do you think through that?

The multi-generational workplace?

Pamela Stambaugh: Yeah.

Uh, it, it, it's, it's real, right?

It's, it's a real condition.

Uh, and sometimes you might end
up saying something or doing

something that disturbs the.

Comfort level of somebody who's different,
who sees the world in a different way.

I've been caught in that myself, not in
the work environment, but in a social

situation where I thought I was providing
something of value and it was seen

as an interruption of, uh, of their.

Being.

Okay.

So it does happen, in which
case you just have to say, Hey,

we see the world differently.

Let's see if we can come together and
honor both sides of this, uh, position.

Right?

My intention was to, to con
contribute, and you said yes.

Or you said whatever you said and
then you changed your mind later.

How am I to deal with that?

Right.

So those things can happen
and they're never comfortable.

But if they're left without attention,
then they, then they grow and they

become stuff in the background
that's messy, that isn't resolved.

So in my world, you're
always wanting to step up.

And say, what was a miss there?

What did I, what cue did I
miss that you thought you gave?

Or what, uh, did I say that you
construed in the way you construed it?

That was not intended to
be construed in that way.

You have to just go back and
have the full dialogue, right?

What did I miss?

Or what did you miss?

Yeah.

Reed: Yeah.

No, that's, that's great.

Um, you know, one of your roles obviously
is you're a, a managing partner of

the Harrison assessments and talk
a little bit about how you use this

assessment, what it is, and, and I.

what, what data points it, it provides
to help you, uh, diagnose a situation?

Pamela Stambaugh: Sure.

Well, the, the Harrison assessment,
um, I have been using for 26

years, which is about four years
short of, its, its entire life.

Um, so I know it well.

It measures 175 behavioral preferences
and tendencies, and I call it the

hard data on the squishy people stuff.

So eligibility is, can someone do the job?

Do they have the skills?

And you can always find out
about those eligibility factors

by third party sources, right?

Whether they have the education,
the experience, the training, the

certifications, whatever's required.

That's easy to find out.

And smart people can do anything, but
they don't always enjoy what they do.

Suitability is what the Harrison
assessment is inherently built to,

to measure with those 175 behavioral
preferences and tendencies,

and now the software is robust
enough to be able to look at, at.

These, the subset of traits that are
unique to a given job and say, is

this person suited for that work?

In other words, would
they enjoy doing the work?

They might be able to do it, but
people are hired because they can do

something, and then why did they fail?

Reed: Yeah.

Pamela Stambaugh: not on
the eligibility side, is it?

It's on the suitability side.

If they could do the job, why
aren't they doing the job?

Reed: Yeah.

Pamela Stambaugh: it's because.

Something about it was not suited to
them, and we don't tend to reinforce

the things that we, that we don't like.

We don't tend to go out
and learn more about them.

If you had the opportunity read to
hire somebody to support you, would you

give them the things you enjoy doing
or the things you don't enjoy doing?

Reed: The things I

Pamela Stambaugh: Right.

Right.

Exactly.

So that's, that's where
the suitability comes in.

Reed: Hmm.

Pamela Stambaugh: And so it can
be useful all the way around the,

what we call the talent lifecycle.

It can be useful in recruiting, and it's
validated for recruiting, by the way.

The efficacy of the tool is huge.

We have.

Reliability data on how congruent
is someone with themselves.

There's enough data associated and enough
math associated with it that it's, that

it, that the efficacy is stronger than
any other tool I know of on the market.

And I've had 26 years of
looking at the rest of 'em too.

So, uh, the recruiting, the, the
onboarding, the developing of

individuals, the development of
teams, uh, the succession planning,

the career pathing, the engagement.

We have data there.

And then we also have
organizational analytics.

So if a small organization.

Uh, takes it on.

It's probably not gonna
use the whole thing.

But if a larger organization is
optimizing the tool, then they'll be

able to use it to say, oh, I now see
where the development needs to be for

this individual is different than the
development for the other individual.

Including engagement and fulfillment.

Uh, so lots and lots and lots there,
but people in organizations tend to

need what they need when they need it.

And it doesn't mean they optimize the
whole tool, it just means they use

it for what they wanna use it for.

And there's no should
about that, but it's, it's

holistically, uh, available for.

Really deep analysis and
and thorough analysis.

It's not a personality test.

Personality tests are not legally
acceptable for recruiting for sure.

There isn't just, there isn't.

First of all, the data isn't job
specific and secondly, there isn't

enough data there to predict anything.

So the Harrison assessment was built from
the, the ground up to predict job success.

Reed: Okay.

Pamela Stambaugh: Mm-hmm.

Reed: do you find, um.

All right.

Well, I guess I, I, I wanna go, uh,
pivot just slightly because as I, as I

was thinking about, um, my role, so I'm,
I own an agency and, um, but one of the

things that I think about is, you know,
some, sometimes I'm, I'm like missing a

skill or I feel like I'm, I'm bad at some
aspect of my job, but I am also so busy.

Uh, you know, like I, I've,
I've got a lot of work to do.

I don't necessarily have time to, uh,
break out and do the training or hire

a coach, uh, because I'm so busy.

But I recognize that I might be too busy
because I, you know, I'm not prioritizing

things correctly or, or efficient enough.

How would you help people
think through that dilemma?

And you know, I, I assume
you've come across this as well.

Pamela Stambaugh: Well, I actually
wrote a blog, which, which comes

first, the chicken or the egg, right?

So if you're gonna get better at
something, you're probably not

gonna do it from your own head.

I.

You're gonna have you, you're
gonna need some outside inputs.

And I don't know about you, but when
I talk to executives, and certainly

in the data, it says that there's
an awful lot of evidence that

people experience imposter syndrome.

Like how do I possibly have everything
that's required to run a business?

Since I've had a business, uh, now for
40 years, but who's counting, right?

I just say, yes, that's true.

And I, and coaches should have coaches.

I have a coach.

Reed: Great.

Pamela Stambaugh: I absolutely have
a coach because if you believe in

coaching, then how could I believe
in it for you, but not for me.

Reed: Right,

Pamela Stambaugh: Right?

There's, there's a, a standard there.

There's a, you know, I'm not gonna sell
something and I'm not gonna use myself.

And feel good about myself, right?

So there is a value there that cannot,
that's not as easily, uh, quantified.

I, I like to say, and, and I've done
a whole white paper on this, read that

the need is there, but the want is not.

And that's a gap that's a problem
because when you look at the

engagement data with Gallup and you
see that disengagement has been 70%

for 20 plus years, what's missing?

What's missing is there's nobody
looking at the impact of who

you're being as a manager.

And I actually have an assessment
that assesses for that.

Take it.

It is a 360 that says, uh, you know, what
do you think of yourself as a leader?

And then what does somebody in
the seven dimensions of team

Power that I work with, right?

Because I've got, I've got a format
and I've got a structure for that.

Uh, and for a company that has
enough employees that they should

care about, how effective are
they, how are they resonating?

In fact, that's one of two
depends on what we're doing.

But I have another assessment that goes
with a Harrison assessment that says.

What's the feedback from your team

and then what's what?

What do you see for yourself?

And then those correlate.

Reed: Okay.

Pamela Stambaugh: I.

Reed: Now, um, uh, I, for instance, I,
um, I didn't start my agency from scratch.

I, I purchased it.

Uh, I, it was already in
existence and I came in.

Um, fortunately I had a great team.

And they do great work.

Um, and I, I think I really
benefited from, from them and

they helped me raise my own game.

But a lot of managers come in,
they're hired from the outside, or

they, they acquire a business with
an existing team that's not so sharp.

Um, what, what do you advise them to
do to change, improve the culture?

What, what are some.

Uh, you know, what, what are some
ways to approach that situation when

maybe you aren't, you're, you're
the outsider, you don't have full

trust of the organization yet.

how would you advise
somebody in that situation?

Pamela Stambaugh: Well, I think
that's where the a hundred

day rule comes in, isn't it?

Where it's where you come in and you
say, gosh, if I'm new to environment,

how am I gonna get up to speed?

Uh, right now I can use an
outside agency, but sometimes I.

At that moment, that's not the best
thing to do because all it does is just.

Add somebody else's opinion.

To my own opinion, if I'm the one
coming into the new environment and I'm

the new manager, uh, it's later when
you get a, a lay of the land and you

see where the gaps are, that you need
somebody to help you address those gaps.

So in the, in that first a hundred
days, you might say, uh, you know,

my goal is to get to know everyone.

To know their kids' names, to know who
they are, to know what they care about,

to know, to know the people, right?

Because at the end of the day,
that's who runs the organization.

That's the asset that's the most valued.

Uh, but when you, when you talk to
managers and owners of businesses, they

value the money more than the people.

That's where the gap is.

Reed: Okay.

Pamela Stambaugh: the,
that's the need, want gap,

Reed: Okay.

I, I like that term.

That's a good, good way to think about it.

Um.

So I, I didn't prep you with
this question before, but I, I

think it's an interesting one.

I, um, because I was doing
a little self-reflection.

now in your role in the work you do, do
you have any, I, I would even open it to,

to real life examples, but any, um, in
media, whether it's a, a character from a

book, character from the movies, uh, that.

Does your job that, uh, you,
you think is a good portrayal

of somebody that does your job?

And, and, um, if, if there
aren't any, that's fine.

Um, but I, I'm always curious what,
how people maybe envision themselves.

Is there like an avatar that,
uh, describes what you do?

You say like, I'm like Mary Poppins,
or I'm like, you know, you know, and I

don't know if any come to mind as you.

Pamela Stambaugh: Uh, well,
I, I, I can speak to it from

a couple of different angles.

Um.

I think there's a book that I, that I
recommend, which is called Leadership

and Self-Deception, and in that it's an
internal person, but that person had had

some guidance from the founder who was
absorbing companies in that industry.

And really it was all
about how you show up.

So the, the resonance of what I
say is important was depicted as a

journey in that book Leadership and
Self-Deception by the Arbinger Institute.

Um, and that's kind of how I work,
but I do it from the outside.

And then when I go looking for an example
of a CEO, right, who's the model of what

I would like to see Paul Pullman, who
was for 10 years, the CEO of Unilever.

Reed: Okay.

Pamela Stambaugh: He's a both end.

Uh, he's a both end, uh, model in
that he believes that if you, if

you really have to have the tension
between two paradoxical traits

and really build that muscle in an
organization in order for people to.

To be their best.

And the Harrison assessment
measures 12 paradoxes, and those

are where the blind spots live.

But, but Paul Pullman was, uh, an example
of somebody who returned a 290% ROI

Reed: Wow.

Pamela Stambaugh: in that 10 years.

And somebody might say,
oh, it's the capitalist.

And, and then he turns around.

And what he was as a leader was
somebody who cared greatly, uh,

and deeply and built structures in.

Unilever to take care of the
sustainability of the areas in the, in

the world where they were operating.

And, and then when he retired,
he wrote a book with, uh, Andrew,

I can't remember his last name,
uh, um, on the sustainability.

And how important it is, right?

So what, you know, I mean, here's
somebody who held the tension between

the capitalist and then the giver, right?

And I, and I highly, uh, a admire
him and there aren't that many.

Another one is Hamdi, who
is the CEO for Chobani.

And when I do webinars, I use them
as examples, but it's too hard.

To find really good examples.

So Chobani was built.

Now, Hyundai Yoka came from Turkey and
his family was in the yogurt business,

so he knew the industry, but he bought,
he was not even solvent when he found

this plant in in upper New York and
said, I wanna buy that plant because

somebody with an Excel spreadsheet.

Uh, in a, in a major corporation
had said, we're gonna close it down.

And he is like, these are people, right?

So he then bought that plant
and all he knew was we're gonna

whitewash the building first.

Right?

Because what was left of it was a skeletal
crew, after all, you know, all came, came

down, and then he bought a place in, uh,
in Idaho and built up a big plant there.

He's just a leader.

Uh, who, when somebody says, well,
you can't do that because there's,

there's no experience or No problem,
we'll just build a community college

class and teach 'em how to do it.

Well, you can't do that because
people don't speak English.

No problem.

We'll, we'll bust 'em in and we'll teach,
you know, it just nothing that other

people saw as a stop or stops for him.

And then he, if in five years from that,
I don't have enough money to buy this

plant, I wanna borrow it and do it anyway.

To leadership in the industry five years.

Think about that.

All because he cares about people.

He leads with his
heartfulness and mindfulness.

Okay, so that's, when I think
about leadership, I think

about exemplary leadership.

People who aren't stopped with the
typical stuff, who, who recognize

that exemplary leadership is providing
stability, not being destabilized

by conditions of circumstances.

Reed: Lovely.

love those examples.

Those are, um, I mean,
I'm, I'm feeling energized.

Just, just, just being reminded
of these, these are great.

I.

Pamela Stambaugh: Yeah.

Reed: Well, well, this was a great
conversation and, and Pamela, obviously

you have so much wisdom in this area and
gave us some real actionable, uh, advice.

Uh, even just in a short time.

If people listening to this podcast
are interested in learning more, making

contact with you, maybe, uh, engaging you
for your services, how can they find you?

What are the best, best, uh, ways to

Pamela Stambaugh: Well, my
website is accountability pays.com

Reed: Okay.

Pamela Stambaugh: and uh, and then
it's p standby@accountabilitypays.com.

That's my email

Reed: Okay,

Pamela Stambaugh: and
that's pretty easy to do.

And then I'm on LinkedIn.

Pamela, that's me.

Reed: great.

Well, and that's how we connected.

So, uh, obviously you're
quite active there.

Um, it, it was a real
pleasure to speak with you.

Please, if you have leadership gaps either
in yourself or accountability gaps, uh,

in your team, I think Pamela is a great
resource to engage and, uh, I would, I

would recommend you reach out to her.

Thank you very much, Pamela.

Pamela Stambaugh: Thank you Reed for
the opportunity to share my passion.

Reed: Yeah, my pleasure.

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