Inside Marketing with MarketSurge

Welcome to Inside Marketing
With Market Surge.

Your front row seat to the
boldest ideas and smartest

strategies in the marketing game.

Your host is Reed Hansen, chief
Growth Officer at Market Surge.

Reed: Hello and welcome again to
Inside Marketing with Market Surge.

Today I'm joined by Ellie McIntyre.

Ellie is a data-driven marketer, AI
enthusiast, and the dynamic host of

the Conversion Zoo Podcast, where she
interviews the wildest minds in marketing

and technology to help businesses
get more clients with less chaos.

With a Bachelor of accounting from the
Australian National University and years

of experience as an SEO specialist,
copywriter and former tax accountant,

Ellie uniquely blends technical
rigor with creative storytelling.

So every episode is equal part strategy
session, and marketing mischief.

Ellie, welcome to the podcast.

Ellie: For having me.

Good to be here.

Reed: Yeah, my pleasure.

And Ellie joins us from Peru
and um, obviously has a lot

of international experience.

Um, but I'd love to hear basically
the story of how you went from a tax

accountant to now being a consultant
for SEO and and digital marketer.

How did you, uh, how did
you make that journey?

Ellie: Yeah, so it was kind of
around when COVID hit and it was

a bit of a shock to the system.

Like, oh, okay, um, this is a whole thing.

And it was before we kind of
knew like what was happening and.

just kind of was like, I think I'm
done with accounting for the time being

like it was, you know, a very much
a corporate environment, fluorescent

lighting, like corporate nine to five.

Um, not much flexibility.

And I was just kind of like,
I'm ready to try something new.

So I, I just quit my job, um, had,
you know, some savings set aside

and I just kind of, um, went all in.

I didn't start going into marketing.

I kind of.

Fell into it, um, but actually started
doing music, built up a Twitch channel.

That was when I kind of wet my
feet with content marketing.

Um, started building an
email list all around that.

Um, and so that kind of like got me
interested in marketing and then I

sort of started doing more with SEO.

And then as I started to get clients,
um, they all ended up, funnily

enough, being accountants, because
obviously I had the background

in taxation, um, and accounting.

And so.

Yeah, I was just, I was kind of
just taking on whatever jobs and

then I just kind of got more and
more referrals and I had obviously

contacts in the accounting industry.

Um, and they were just like, can
you help me with my accounting,

uh, sorry, with my marketing.

And I think, 'cause it's such a technical
industry, like a lot of people just

wanted someone who knew the industry
and could write about tax legislation.

So that kind of became my edge.

And then I had like
virtual CFOs reach out.

So it kind of just happened a bit like
mysteriously, like as a lot of things

kind of do in life where yeah, it was
just kind of this snowballing effect.

So yeah, that was five years ago that
I took the plunge and since then I've

just gone all in on content marketing
and I just absolutely love it.

Reed: That's awesome.

Well, you know, knowing what I know
about SEO, I could see how the diligence

and precision that you need to really
have as an accountant probably pays off.

I mean, is that fair to say?

Do you think that their, uh, they
complimentary skills, would you say.

Ellie: Absolutely.

I think that's what probably drew
me into like SEO specifically.

Uh, I know there's a lot of marketing
and marketing agencies out there

who meet these big promises or.

You know, like it can feel a bit hypey.

Um, whereas SEO to me is very data driven.

It's very much you are looking at the
data, the statistics, how many people are

searching per month for certain terms.

Um, you're looking at conversion metrics.

So there's so much data,
um, that I look at.

Domain ranking, all of this
sort of thing, backlinks.

It's very much like a data-driven
approach to marketing, and I'm looking

at, whenever I work with clients, like
I take a benchmark from when we start

working together and then each month I'm
tracking to see like how are we going,

are we getting more website traffic?

What's the conversion rates like?

Really tracking the metrics to
make sure there's measurable

improvements because it's just.

You know, a passion of mine to like
make sure I'm giving my clients

value and I wanna be able to back
that up with statistics, with data.

And I think that's very much my
accounting, analytical background.

Yeah.

Reed: Yeah.

Well that makes a lot of sense.

now you're based in Peru.

do you cover the globe?

Do you work with clients all over the
world or where do you focus primarily?

Ellie: Yeah, so most of my clients are
in Australia or the US at the moment.

Um, I bumped into someone, actually,
I went out hiking on the weekend.

Um, and I met a guy and he's like,
oh, I need help with marketing, so

could be my first Peruvian client.

We'll see.

But, um, mostly, yeah, Australia
and the US are where I get

most of my clients from.

Reed: Fantastic.

Now, um, you know, something that
I is on a lot of people's minds and

for a lot of different reasons is.

Is the emergence of ai.

Now, you know, we don't have to talk
all podcasts about SEO, but, but I'd

love to drill in a little bit about
how do you see AI affecting SEO and

what do you recommend to your clients?

What kinds of services do you provide
to help optimize for AI affecting SEO?

what, what are topics do you
think about in, um, in that area?

Ellie: Yeah, no, this is a question
that comes up a lot on my podcast

actually, um, is people think, oh,
like how does, how is AI affecting SEO?

And I think ultimately.

Um, from a high level, like any of
these like search engines, whether

it's Google or Chat, GBT or Gemini,
they all want to give the user

the best solution to the problem.

So that's kind of like their main goal.

So basically, you know, obviously
Google has certain metrics that

they do that with SEO in terms of
backlinks, you know, keyword, time

spent on site, site load speed.

There's all these different metrics.

reviews all of that.

Obviously if you're in
the local SEO space.

And then like, you can go to chat GBT and
ask basically how does it rank things?

And it, it's very similar
to how Google ranks.

So, uh, the, a few things that
might be slightly different is

because an AI program is like
scraping the web automatically.

The structure of the content is
becoming a lot more important

Reed: Hmm.

Ellie: that things are in tables or
bullet points or have clear headings

rather than just like a wall of text
stuffed with keywords, you know?

So, um, there's a lot of similarities,
thankfully, between SEO and.

which is like generative
engine optimization.

There's still like a lot
of terms floating around.

I don't think anyone's really
settled on what it's gonna be called.

but there's a lot of similarities.

So I think if people like are
implementing things in SEO, like it

will translate thankfully to these LLMs.

But I think like more and more we're
seeing, because there's so much like

overwhelm of information out there
now, like there's just so much content.

What I think is like really helpful is
the structure and just making sure it's

clear, it's concise, it's easy to find.

Um, and then another thing that,
um, is really important is like a

hyper, hyper-specific information.

So rather than just, you know, me
being like, oh, I'm a marketing agency

and I do, you know, SEO, it's like.

Oh, I work with accounting firms who have
these problems and like really listing

out the specific, you know, accounting
firms, the size of the accounting

firms that I work with, how many
staff, like all of that sort of stuff.

Giving as much detail and specificity
on the content so that when someone's

looking in say, chat GBT and they're
just like, oh, I want a, a marketing

firm that works for accountants,
then like, it's gonna be able to

gather all of that web scraping data.

Populate an answer for them.

yeah, if, if that makes sense.

Reed: Yeah.

No, that's all super helpful.

Um, you know, and I, I have, observed
myself being really specific seems to

be really helpful, like you said, and
trying to just really dive into a niche.

you know, I have a marketing agency and
ideally we'd offer to any industry, but

we have tended to focus on a couple.

because of word of mouth and so with
our content, we've tried to emphasize

that more and more and, uh, you know,
seems to be working to some degree.

It's all incremental, but,

Ellie: Hmm

Reed: um, you know, so far, so good now,

Ellie: mm-hmm.

Reed: um.

Now you also have a podcast.

You have, uh, the conversion zoo.

Uh, I saw a few episodes,
which you do a great job.

how did you start that and what
was, um, what's the premise

that, um, you podcast about?

can you tell us a little bit more?

Ellie: Yeah, sure.

So, um, it's basically kind of
birthed out of my passion for ai.

I know there's a lot of kind of fear and
overwhelm and, you know, misinformation

out there around AI and people are scared
and confused and I really wanted to.

Bridge the gap between AI and marketing.

So all of my guests are like usually
marketing agencies or automation agency

owners, um, people kind of working in
the AI space with creative industries.

I interviewed a guy today who's
doing like AI generated video.

So it's really just to help kind of
people get to know ai, get to use

it, how do you future proof yourself,
you know, how do you work with this?

Um, so that was kind of why I created it.

it's a passion project.

Um, I just love interviewing
people and chatting, um, and yeah,

conversion zoo, because I really
think that marketing can be very

over complicated by a lot of people.

And made to sound like it's super
challenging or complicated and it can

be like, it's definitely, I'm not saying
because it's not complicated that it's

easy, it's absolutely not easy, but it,
I think there's a lot of simplification

that we can bring to this space
that a lot of people, you know, just

overcomplicate stuff and make things.

wordy or too, you know, challenging
that kind of like doing extra

things that aren't necessary.

So I really wanted to like
distill kind of core marketing

concepts into like a simple way.

So taking the chaos and the confusion
out of marketing strategies.

That was kind of the goal.

Reed: That's awesome.

Kind of like a primer or
something, you know, on the.

Mix of marketing.

I really like that.

Um, so, but overall on ai, you
know, what tools do you like?

what do you experiment with?

you know, what have you liked recently
that, that, would fit in the AI category?

Ellie: Yeah, I mean, the one
I use most is just chat, GPT.

Reed: Mm-hmm.

Ellie: a content marketer and a
copywriter, that's kind of my go-to.

Um, I've been playing around a lot with
custom GPTs, um, from like a tonality.

Perspective and like writing
different styles of content.

Um, I have a podcast GPT
for all my show notes.

Um, I have gpt kind of for each of
my clients that are set up in their

custom tone of voice and all of that.

Um,

Reed: Mm-hmm.

Ellie: Like business strategy,
marketing strategy, basically just as

like a brainstorming partner, I guess.

I'm just like, get up my phone,
put the voice mode on, and I'm

like, Hey, like this is going on.

Like, what do I do?

And how would you approach this?

I use it for images
with the Dali, as well.

even though you know, it feels like,
oh, chat, GPT, everyone knows that.

there's A lot of things you can do
with it that I don't think a lot of

people realize, even in a personal
sense, like dragging your, workout

videos in to check your form.

I took a photo of my cat to check
if it was overweight the other day.

Like it's just, become a
bit of a personal assistant.

Reed: Yeah.

Ellie: especially 'cause like a lot of my
work can be quite solo, it's quite nice

to just kind of bounce back and forth.

So I, I would say chat
like I'm using every day.

Um, I haven't dabbled too
much in a lot of other ones.

I've used Opus Clip, which is
like a AI shorts generator.

Um, and then a little bit of Gemini.

Um, with the, Google Workspace,
they sometimes have an email

response prompts that you can
just copy paste, which I like.

'cause then I don't have to
go back and forth between my

emails and chat every day.

Um, yeah.

And then I've also played around
a little bit with make.com

doing some automations.

So.

Reed: Oh, cool.

Ellie: that's something that I need
to usually block out more time to

just set up the automations and test
it and if this, then that scenarios.

But, um, yeah, it's been fun just
sort of seeing like what's possible

and then also like seeing what other
people are using it for as well.

Like, I don't know about you, but
I mean, you get these kind of.

inboxes in, or emails.

Emails or LinkedIn, you know,
requests and things like that,

that it's always interesting to see
like how other people are using ai.

And I was like, oh, I
hadn't thought of that.

Or That's really cool, or, you know,
it's just fun to be in the space and just

see what other people are doing as well.

Reed: So let me ask you a question.

Now you're a copywriter and an SEO
specialist and I, I know there's

obviously a lot of pride in.

You know, everybody takes pride in
their work and, um, you know, but you're

obviously very passionate about ai.

Um, I, you know, I'm a
sales and marketing guy.

I'm not like a writer.

I'm not a copywriter, purist, and
I don't really have a lot of qualms

about using AI generated content.

How do you balance the, you know, the
human generated content versus the AI

generated content, both in terms of like.

Um, you know, the, the quality
and and authenticity of the, the

content versus like the quantity
you could generate from ai.

Ellie: that's a good question
'cause a lot of people, clients or

whoever are like, well I can just
get chat chip PT to write that.

Like why would I pay a marketing agency?

Or let's just push these blogs out.

And I've actually had like clients
send me a blog and I'm like,

I can just tell straight away.

It's just chat pt.

Reed: Right.

Ellie: I don't think there's
anything wrong with using

chat chip t to write content.

I think that where the issue comes
in is like the person generating

the content needs to know, is
this actually good content?

If it is, then like, cool, use ai.

But if it's not.

You either need to rewrite it or edit it
or change the prompt or write it yourself.

and I think that that
would also come back.

'cause I know there's a lot of
people out there who say, oh,

Google's gonna penalize AI content.

It's not true.

Google just wants people to get the
information that they need, whether that's

AI or not, it doesn't really matter.

what really matters is, is the content
evidently just a copy paste from chat.

like, is there minimal effort put in?

And it's just a drag and drop.

I don't think that's good content
and I think consumers are getting

smarter and wiser and they're using
chat so they know what it sounds like.

And like I said, I could just tell
from looking at this phrasing, 'cause

I'm reading words and I'm like,
these words aren't really used in

colloquial language and the phrasing
is a bit off and the pacing so.

I think people are getting smarter and
if they can see you've just dragged and

dropped content, obviously that's not
going to resonate as well with them.

They're not going to
connect with it as much.

So I think that there's real power in,
you know, like knowing, okay, who am I?

What am I offering?

Um, who am I serving?

Why am I doing this?

And really creating a GPT, even a custom
GPT or creating like a tonality around.

Your brand.

So then it's like it's
got all the information.

Maybe you want it to write like JK Rowling
or Elon Musk or you know, Chuck Pia.

'cause it's just short
and snappy, you know?

So there's ways to really.

Get it to sound human by asking
it to write like another human

that has information online.

So I think ultimately it's not
necessarily about you using chat.

PT for content is good or bad.

It's how are you using it and what kind
of content are you getting out of it?

Because I can go in there and say,
write like a direct response copywriter.

Imagine you're this person, use this
framework and it can like smash out

a really solid sales page, you know?

But I have to give it the right
inputs and I have to know.

What is it that I want?

What is it I want it to sound like?

And do I know what good copy
is and sounds like and reads?

Because otherwise, if I'm just going
in blind thinking, oh, I'm just

gonna write a blog post in chat chip
t, and then I get this content, I'm

like, oh, that sounds good enough.

Put it on my website.

It's like.

It's not, and especially because like I
mentioned before about this, you know,

surge of information coming online and
it's just there's so much out there.

I think the people who take the time to
really get concise and structured and

clear with how they communicate and bring
in a certain personality, they're gonna

be the people that are gonna stand out
in this massive of sea of information.

That's just chat.

GPT kind of sprayed on
the internet, you know?

Reed: Yeah, yeah.

No, absolutely.

And I, you know, years ago I used,
one of the early models, Jasper ai,

maybe if you ever came across that.

Ellie: Yeah.

Reed: at the beginning it was
kind of fascinating that you could

generate a blog, but it was terrible.

Like the first versions were so
robotic and you had to look at

it very closely, or it would,

Sneak in some, incomprehensible phrases.

Now, you mentioned earlier you
use the custom GPT function and I

imagine in a specialized industry
like the, accountants that you work

with, you do have to be extra careful
for, being, compliant and accurate.

in some cases it's like illegal
to put misleading information

on, an accountant's website.

do you find that the custom GPT allows
you to put enough, training data in there

that it works pretty well for accountants?

Ellie: Yeah, I mean,
this is a good question.

it's something that.

because of my background, I just know,
like I can read a blog post and know

that's correct or that's incorrect.

I don't have to reference
like a government website.

I do when I'm writing the blog post
for a client and I'll include links

and all of that obviously, but when I'm
just kind of drafting and generating.

Blog ideas.

It really depends on the topic.

'cause some of the keywords we're going
are like, uh, for like what to look

for in a virtual C-E-O-A-C-F-O, sorry.

Or what to look for when
hiring a tax accountant.

And so depends on the subject matter.

It depends if I'm referring
to legislation or not.

whereas if it's a blog post about
depreciation or assets, then of

course it's very important to have.

legislative references to tax,
whether that's the IRS or the A

TO in Australia and making sure
it's very concise and accurate.

luckily tax systems in Australia
and the US are very similar.

They just have slightly
different language.

So I think yes, it's very
important and I think for technical

industries it's more important to.

Be wary when using AI applications,
especially from a perspective as

well, because you know, like there's
a lot of issues with, especially

like law firms and accountants and
financial advisors and not wanting to

put identifiable information in so.

I think it depends on
the topic of the blog.

even if I can get 90% of the blog post
done by the custom GBT and then I can just

tweak it and edit it and be like, oh, that
needs a reference here, or that's actually

not correct, I'm gonna tweak that.

it's still worthwhile for me.

Gives me the structure, it gives
me all the intro and the points

and then I can tweak and meddle
with it to get it to where I want.

And then obviously, like I always
send it to the client for a review,

um, as well to before publishing.

and then also like another thing I do
sometimes is I'll be like asking chat GPT.

'cause I know there's
hallucinations and it can give.

Incorrect information, which a
lot of people have encountered.

so I'll often ask it like, please,
in like everything you're telling me,

like refer to a government website,
whether that's I-R-S-A-T-O, I'm

like, give me like the reference.

So it's actually got to like give me
the link to the page that it's pulled

the data from so I can verify it.

So that's just another way that I can just
double check everything looks accurate.

but I do think that like my background in
accounting and tax legislation has just

paved the way and made it a lot easier.

Um, 'cause that's also something my
clients tell me is that like, you

know, like I want someone who knows the
industry, who knows about tax and isn't

just a general marketing agency because
it is such like a technical industry.

And I think like lawyers and, and
law firms and financial advisors are

very similar because there is the
risk of, you know, if you put the

wrong information on your website.

You can get in trouble, or if you
are a tax agent in Australia, you're

not allowed to give financial advice.

So there's all these different little,
you know, hurdles that we've gotta

watch out for and make sure is accurate.

Reed: that's really good,
uh, tactical advice.

I would definitely advise somebody
in one of those technical fields

very compliance driven that, they
should hire somebody like you.

I don't know if it's easy to find somebody
that has left accounting to go into,

starting their own marketing agency.

Ellie: in a way,

Reed: it does seem like, yes.

Ellie: but it

Reed: But yeah, we,

Ellie: no, sorry.

Reed: we, uh, recently started
working with, uh, a former actuary.

Ellie: Oh,

Reed: actually a friend of mine.

I know him, but you can tell that.

So I've got, like, one big chunk
of my clients are photographers

and then we've hired an actuary.

And it is like, start difference,
the kinds of questions we get.

You know, the, how does that work?

How does that, you know, I wanna know, I
wanna know the ins and outs of all that,

you know, and, um, great, great guy.

But,

Ellie: Yeah.

It's funny, I had a client that I just,
onboarded last month and, you know, I'm

like going through the call and everything
and I'm like, oh, you know, like,

you know, who's your target customer?

And like, you know, What
industries do you wanna focus on?

And like, you know, what's
your brand messaging?

And they just like, they're
like, we have no idea.

Like, can you just do this for us?

'cause I think it's just such like
a different, you know, 'cause the

accounting is like an analytical.

Part and then the creativity
and the marketing.

so I think a lot of accounting firms
struggle and a lot of them don't do a

lot of marketing because of that barrier.

Reed: Yeah.

No, that is a good point.

Um, do you also produce video
content, uh, for your clients or,

um, you know, how do you handle that?

Ellie: Um, don't currently do
any video content for my clients.

Um, it's mostly just
SEO and written content.

Um, don't really focus on social
media, just 'cause the engagement

is so low and the client base that
they're targeting is not generally on

social media looking for an accountant.

So it is very.

SEO kind of chat bt
focused, driven content.

Um, and, and obviously
Google Maps and local SEO.

So, no, I mean, I would
be open to doing video.

Like I do enjoy video editing
and obviously there's so

much capability now with ai.

Um, but like most of my clients like.

I'll be like, yeah, we can do like
two blog posts and a monthly email.

And they're like, yeah, we are not
going to email more than once a month.

Like, our clients will
freak out, you know?

And so it's, it's kind of

Reed: Okay.

Ellie: baby

Reed: Okay.

Ellie: and like managing
expectations, whereas like I know

marketing or copywriters who email
every day or five times a week.

But if you email a business
owner like every day, they're

gonna get so frustrated.

So it's like understanding, it's been
really important to like understand, okay.

Most of the people they're
serving are business owners.

They're not gonna sit down and read an
email every day about tax or accounting.

Like it's just not
something people wanna read.

On their time off, you know, but like
a once a month or a once a fortnight

kind of blog roundup or, you know,
key highlights of tax changes or ways

to save tax or time or bookkeeping,
like that's, I think, more relevant.

So it's, it's a very different,
like, you know, marketing structure

to say like e-commerce who does
SMS and emails and all of that.

So yeah, it's, it's quite a different
industry, but I really enjoy it.

Reed: That's great.

Well, it's really interesting to talk
to somebody that's, found the niche

and is just really growing there and it
sounds like you're doing great work with

your unique background, you know, and
you've kind of crossed over from one,

Yeah, exactly.

The left brain to the right
brain or whatever, you know?

So that's very, very fascinating.

Now, if people would like to work
with you or get your thoughts on

something, how could they find you?

Where's the best place?

Ellie: Yeah, sure.

So my website's just the best
place, which is conversion zoo.com.

Um, all the information's on there.

Um, they can book a call or whatever
they feel like, and then if they

wanna check out the podcast, it's just
conversion Zoo on, podcasting platforms.

So, yeah.

Reed: Awesome.

Well, thank you so much Ellie.

It was really a pleasure to have
you on and you know, I hope we

can have another conversation
in the future and stay in touch.

Ellie: Sounds good.

Thanks for having me.

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