Inside Marketing with MarketSurge

Speaker: Welcome to Inside
Marketing With Market Surge.

Your front row seat to the
boldest ideas and smartest

strategies in the marketing game.

Your host is Reed Hansen, chief
Growth Officer at Market Surge.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Hello
and welcome back to Inside

Marketing with Market Surge.

Today we're diving into one of
my favorite intersections where

discipline meets disruption.

My guest, Steven Worley, went
from serving as an army ranger to

becoming the founder of Closable ai,
a company that's transforming how

sales teams turned data into dollars.

doesn't just talk about ai in
theory, he's on the ground helping

sales led organizations build
pipelines that actually convert,

high revenue behaviors in their teams
and automate the kind of follow up

that used to take an army of SDRs.

His work has already reached more
than 6,500 business owners, and today

he's here to share the playbook for
how AI isn't replacing salespeople.

It's supercharging them.

buckle up because we're about to
learn how a ranger's discipline and

an innovator's mind are reshape,
reshaping the future of sales.

Well, welcome Steven.

I'm glad to have you on.

Steven Werley: Yeah, thanks.

Happy to be here Reed.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Well, you know,
first of all, I, um, uh, you know, I think

your journey has been super fascinating.

Uh, you, you've served in the
military, um, uh, in arm as an Army

ranger, and now you're an AI founder.

Can you talk a little bit
about the, that transition?

What the, the differences in culture
between, uh, military and corporate, or

military and tech, corporate, you know,

Steven Werley: Yeah.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: you
know, what, what's that been like?

Steven Werley: Yeah, it is interesting.

So that, and there's some steps
in between there too, right?

So, um, the military, I think anyone,
and it is funny, I was talking about

this with somebody yesterday, when
you're in the military and then you.

Go and get a job, or you're working
with, you know, civilians, quote

unquote, like non-military people.

It's a complete change
in discipline, right?

So that.

Is, uh, an eye-opening experience because
you're used to, okay, somebody says

something and you're supposed to do it,
you get it done, or everything changes.

And then when you shift from that
to out, uh, all of a sudden that's

not exactly how the world works.

And that's not how people
tend to respond to things.

They might say, yes,
okay, or nod their head.

But, uh, things change.

So when I got out, I actually joined, uh.

A company as an employee now
my degree in computer science.

And um, on the first team call that
happened there, some guy got fired

and I later learned that he got fired
on that call for like the third time.

And they were just bickering back
and forth like him and the owner.

It was a small, like 10 person
company, but it was one of those things

that I was just like, holy smoke.

Like this was like drastically different
than what I was used to experience.

Experiencing 'cause if this guy had,
you know, acted out in that way,

I'm not saying like firing wasn't
necessarily the bad option was, was it

the right option to do on that call?

Probably not.

But also had this happened in the
military, this guy just would've been

like feet up doing pushups nonstop.

So it's just, it's just different.

Like he never would've got to
that point 'cause he would've

known the consequences beforehand.

With that said.

Um, I, you know, I, I started a,
a marketing agency shortly after

that because I realized that I just
wasn't ready to really code again.

Um, that just wasn't
the right place for me.

And then I shifted into
sales and now sales and ai.

So it's been a very, you
know, steady transition.

But, uh, I, I think overall, uh.

You know, it, it, it comes into
seeing the differences in leadership

between companies and how that
transcends down to the team.

So I see a lot within the sales teams
and how they react to the top, how

they talk about the executive level
team, uh, how they respond to their

managers, things of that nature, more
so than anything else at this point.

Um, but yeah.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Well, you know,
so I've never served in the military and

thank you for your service, first of all.

Steven Werley: Yeah, no, no worries.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: but the,
the perception I've always, I've

always had is that, you know, kinda
like you described, it's like very,

very clear, uh, action and outcome.

Um, in terms of like discipline
and, and you know, I've, I've

spent my life in corporate where.

You know, a lot of, um, personnel
decisions are made by or like

impression or, you know, I'm just
not like so, so direct and, and

sometimes I would be kind of envious.

It'd be like, well, rather than
have to be embarrassed in front of

a group in a conference room during
a presentation, you know, like, my

pipeline's not full enough or something.

You know, I would've loved to just do
a hundred pushups and just call it, you

know, do better next time, you know, but.

Who knows, like maybe, maybe, maybe not.

Steven Werley: Yeah.

I, I, I think it's scarier though
when, when it's somebody else, and,

and this is what happens about, like,
when it's somebody else that messes

up and then you're the one doing
pushups and you never know, like, all

right, what's John gonna do today?

Right?

Like, what's, what is he gonna do?

What is he gonna forget?

Like, did he study this stuff?

Does he know the numbers
going into the meeting, like.

That's where you're just like, oh my gosh.

Like, and this guy's just watching
you do pushups, then that's, that's

how a lot of the punishment happened.

Um, you mess up and then other
people get punished for it.

So then you had to have that
bad feeling about watching other

people struggle for your mishap.

But yeah.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge:
Well, that's awesome.

So now, you know, in addition to
the military, you know, you've

highlighted a couple things,
which I think are pretty unique.

I have a sales background,
um, and I'm, I was always, um.

Fascinated by the engineers that were
building the products I was selling.

You know, just what they did was
mysterious to me and, and impressive.

But you've combined that.

You've, you have worked, you have
a computer science background

and a sales background now.

Obviously, like you've kind of
combined that in closable ai.

Um, but maybe talk a little bit about
how those two fields and, and uh, maybe

what is the, the thought behind the
closable AI services and products I.

Steven Werley: Yeah.

You know, I, I, I tend to think
my, my background is pretty unique

in, in terms of a lot of folks.

I, I think that, you know, most.

Most people that go through a
computer science track tend to

stay somewhat in that track.

Um, even if they, they
veer off a little bit.

Their minds, uh, still
like very, very technical.

And I, I've also learned that I definitely
benefit from a bit of the strategy aspect

of things too, and seeing, you know, big
picture and not just like being in a code

and, uh, you know, doing those things.

So, you know, I, I think.

My I idea was I never actually really
loved implementing and doing tons

of high, like really in, in depth
implementing though it's a, you

know, kind of a superpower in a way.

So it's one of those superpowers
that I would try to hide and I,

I would try to hide that in my
marketing, you know, background.

I would try to do more strategy
consulting and not necessarily get into

the all the build outs and everything,
even though I'm very efficient at it.

Uh, and, and then when it
came to the sales teams.

Um, I, I learned pretty quickly,
I love doing sales, like sales and

having conversations and doing these
conversations too on, on podcasts.

They're, they're very fun for me to do.

I love talking to people.

Uh, that's probably where I'm almost
a little bit different in terms

of the, you know, computer science
track right there, that the general

aspect or or view on it, but.

Uh, when it comes to, you know, closable
AI specifically, it was how can I take

the strategy of everything I've done
in terms of building the sales teams,

managing the sales teams, how we, uh,
make decisions and coach and, and do

all those things, and then take AI and.

Bleed that into it and then be able
to give that away in a way that's

relatively productized or, uh, uh, you
know, some form of implementation that

isn't super stressful for a business or
takes a lot of, uh, adoption coaching

for the, the teams or anything like that.

And it really started while I was
running the sales agency because.

I was overwhelmed in the feedback loop and
for anyone that is wondering what I mean

by that, it's, you know, I, I have a team
of salespeople, they need calls reviewed.

They, they need feedback on what's
happening in the sales process.

And it's really hard when you're
managing teams to be able to get

all that out in an efficient manner.

And then AI was coming up, and then I
dedicated some time to really learning ai.

And AI started to assist with all of that.

Uh, not saying it's was 100% as good
as me at that time, but, uh, and it

can't necessarily listen, hear the
aspects of how a conversation sounds,

more basing on a transcript and things
like that, but it's good enough to

cover my missed tracks and it's.

Better at analyzing large
data sets than I am.

Right.

So, and in general, better than,
you know, most people, unless you

really take a lot of time right.

To, to sit down and do it
and, and then it's like, okay,

what's, what's the benefit?

And then what's that
causing you to miss out on?

So.

All in all closable Ai, a way to
bring in the, the strategy aspect of

what's happening in the sales process.

Get good coaching out of it, good data
for a business owner or, or the, the

team leads, marketing leads to, to
see, hey, like this is where things

are getting stuck in the sales process.

Maybe they need more information here
that we need to build collateral for.

And then in the sales process, like, Hey,
maybe we need better touch points here.

Uh, and, and then moving
through the, the rest of it.

So.

Just combining a lot of natural flows
and, and using AI to enable that.

I'm a, I'm a big AI
enabler versus AI replacer.

Uh, there, there are certain, uh,
aspects where AI can replace in, in

certain aspects, but I'm a big fan of
human in the loop, uh, and, and having

those humans be able to, uh, be and
operate at a higher level because they

have the technology at their disposal.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

Well, okay, so a few questions, uh,
from based on that now at, at closable.

You know, like I think you're doing
some important work and, um, you

know, and so from, based on my
experience with sales teams, um.

You know, you'll have some sales
organizations that are, they

kind of operate by feel by gut,
you know, like the, you know,

they like the alpha players or

Steven Werley: Yes.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: more
charismatic salespeople, uh, you

know, and they, they tend to succeed
regardless of results or effort and, um.

You know, and, and so that's
like a, that's a culture

that's not using data, period.

And

Steven Werley: Yes.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: cultures that
use kind of traditional metrics, like

number of calls, number of meetings, um.

Uh, you know, and, and
like total revenue closed.

I also feel like those, um, might not
be complete, but of those two groups,

where do you find more traction with
closable and, and, uh, what, what do

you think is, I mean, do you, do you
have, um, different approaches for

those two kinds of sales cultures?

Steven Werley: Yeah.

In, in a way, I, I honestly,
the way that I position it is

that one, the, A culture is.

It is a tough culture to,
to operate in, in general.

Uh, I, I find that it's, it's
a very volatile, uh, culture.

That's where you get the higher turnover
rates because, uh, generally, and, and

I don't mean this at, in, in, you know,
a 100% of the time, but generally those

folks are more self-serving and they're
the ones with the higher turnover rates.

So while they, while they're
there, they can give a lift.

It's.

A metaphor that just popped into my head.

If you think about, if you, if you
remember the days where Terrell Owens

was playing, a lot of times he would
play on a team and give them a lift.

But then when he would go down and
leave the team, the team would be left

in like str like strands and, and it
would completely tear down the culture.

And, you know, people
would pick sides and.

Players would need to be traded away
in order to rebuild the culture.

Coach coaches would need to be fired.

Right?

So that's, that's very
volatile place to be.

It ultimately, and I, I pitched
this more as a way to say, hey.

Let's build a team around culture because
we don't necessarily need the people

who are going to be the best when they
come in if they don't meet that culture.

Now there are a players who are great
culture people, uh, they exist, but uh, a

lot of them are more on the self-serving.

Hey, like, I'm gonna go for the thing
that's gonna get me the best result and.

No shame in that either, right?

That's just a personal preference.

But if we can get the people that are
dedicated to the company and might be

more of that B level player, and I know
you kind of separated in two, two groups,

but they're more of that B level player
and we can build, uh, a way for them

to, to use the things and be dedicated
to using the things because they see a

pathway to greatness and they're more
about growth, uh, versus just end result.

That's the person that we can bring into a
team and make it more sustainable as well.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

No.

Fantastic.

So, um, and then when we're talking
about leadership of sales teams

too, I, I haven't encountered
many sales leaders that are very.

Um, you know, tech competent,
um, you know, you know, maybe

competent, but like barely,

Steven Werley: Agreed.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: you know,
and, um, the, you know, it's really

not this, the, it's not like a
key driver of success years past.

I think going forward it probably will be.

Um, but they're overwhelmed by.

Like concepts like AI or automation.

Um, what do you think, know, how do you,
um, how do you introduce these AI tools

and automation in inside sales teams that
aren't traditionally, you know, maximizing

the use of their tech platforms?

Steven Werley: Yeah.

Um.

Here's what I'll say in general,
I, I see the same thing.

I had an issue with this early on.

Uh, the issue was just getting people
to use the things, but that's also in

terms of getting a sales team member to
update the CRM can be a dreadfully painful

process sometimes, which is, is tough.

I, I find that the, which is
surprising because I, I find

that now there's, there's a.

Like, you know, old sales and then there's
young sales and I still find that those

young sales, they're, they're almost
just as bad, uh, at the tech side, if

not worse than the others because the
people who have been around sales for

a long time, they know what it takes
in order to get the deals across the

table and keep track of their pipeline.

And they know with experience
that the money's in the pipeline.

I think a lot of the younger guys
haven't figured that out yet.

So they're just tech averse in general.

What I try to do is figure out what a
sales team's processes before moving in,

and generally most of them are pretty
similar in general in terms of the way

that they attack things or what they're
looking for, and creating customized

dashboards for sales team members.

Is a huge benefit in what
I see in terms of adoption.

So if they like seeing their deals
populate in a certain way, let's

have the deals populate in that
way where they can visualize it.

And then when they click in, if it, you
know, gives them suggestions for follow

up emails and, and things of that nature,
then it's, it's right there for them.

They can just pull from it and it's where
they're tracking everything anyways.

So, and we can integrate that with their
existing CRM if that's the case, or if

their CRM allows for, you know, certain
things to come into it and we can just

work within that, then we'll do that.

Uh, but I find customizing it to
the salespeople with, with, you

know, it's usually not a massive
customization aspect, but it's just.

How can they visualize it in
the way that they like to do it?

I, I find that sometimes sales
team members pull all their deals

out of a CRM and put in a Google
sheet and they track 'em that way.

It's like, what a nightmare.

And then their, their CRMs never updated.

Well, what if we can
take that list format?

And give them that in a dashboard,
but then also have it SYC to the CRM,

so that way they don't need to, you
know, focus on doing it in two places.

Uh, and then also just implement
the AI tools into that.

So then it's already there.

They're looking at it, they're
looking at the suggestions.

When they click into the deal, they're
making notes or AI's helping them

make notes and they can adjust it.

So.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge:
That's, that's fantastic.

Well, um, To pull the thread on ai,
um, you know, a big question that.

Is affecting a lot of businesses, is
the role of AI in the sales process.

Um, what, you know, today, we,
there are technologies that are, um,

you know, that actually automate,

Steven Werley: Yes.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: of the
emails and texts, but then, you

know, we're, we're also seeing
some intelligent voice AI agents,

Steven Werley: Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: or,
or, you know, customized videos

that are sent out dynamically.

Um, where, where do you stand on.

Just at a high level, you know,
where should teams be embracing ai?

Um, and, you know, I think you mentioned
you're, you know, not trying to replace

but augment, um, you know, where do
you see the, the place for the human

touch or the human sales, uh, efforts?

Steven Werley: As much as
possible, uh, is, is my opinion.

I, I feel that these tools are
shiny and some of them perform well.

When you look at it at a high
level, like if you're like,

oh, I listened to an AI call.

That sounds pretty good.

It handled it pretty well.

It has the knowledge
when you look at it from.

The other side of it, the prospect side.

That's where I think we're
not quite ready for that.

I think we will be more ready for it,
and I'm glad that the technology's

advancing in the background.

But, uh, I take a more
conservative approach there.

While I think there's a lot of benefit
in using AI setters in certain aspects,

and, you know, if no one's available
to answer the phone, it's better that

an AI answers the phone than nobody.

That's where I see the best use right now.

But if a human can make that initial
connection, I believe that's going to

flow better, uh, at, at that stage.

AI, I believe, does a better job in
terms of, uh, helping with the, the

data, uh, of understanding it, looking
at the pipeline stages, seeing where

deals get stalled, uh, help with,
uh, giving feedback from the calls.

Uh, how we can customize emails based on
the offer and how that conversation went,

uh, for the, for the follow up aspect.

So it takes a little less of that.

Uh, work away from the closer
and, and admin time so they

can get back on the phones.

That's where I find that most
salespeople wanna operate anyways, right?

They want to be on the front
lines, closing the deals.

Uh, and I don't think we should look at
AI as the, the solution right now to be.

The deal closer.

Some, in some cases I can see some,
uh, early level, um, you know,

AI setting capabilities and, and
definitely a lot where you have a 24 7

receptionist, you know, 365 days a year.

Like, that's, that's sexy, right?

Like, that's, that's one of those things.

That's great.

But.

If you have a whole sales team already,
um, would I dump the setters for the ai?

I probably wouldn't.

Uh, I, I don't think that would
yield better results down the line.

I think you would have a drop off
from that point to the next step,

and then you would have a lot less
at bats and actually closing folks.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Well, you know,
I think that quote is gonna make it to

the highlight reel because I have, I, I
share your, your opinion and you're, you

know, a certified expert in this field.

And, um, though those technologies are
out there, I just don't think that.

You can replace a human sales person.

Like I, I feel like complete a trans
transaction, a large purchase, like

you need to feel little bit heard.

And I just don't

Steven Werley: Mm-hmm.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Ai, ai voice
bots are, are really capable of that.

It's just we, I don't know if our, our
brains will get there, but I don't know.

Um, 'cause because

Steven Werley: If, if, if

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: it's like

Steven Werley: AI becomes sentient
and, and we're like hiring, maybe

like, I, I don't know, but it,
like, we're not there, right?

Everything's based on predictive text.

That's what, that's what AI is.

That's what LLM is.

It's all predictive text, so.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, well, absolutely.

So, so Steven, uh, just,
just closing thoughts.

Do you, you know, in, in the next
three and five years, what role

do you see AI playing in sales
management and overall growth strategy?

Do you, do you think it will
have an increased role or

do you think it will, um.

Do you think it'll just be
kind of where we're at today?

You know what, what do you see?

Or, or are there any specifics
that, that you see down the pipe?

Steven Werley: Yeah,
specifically in sales.

That's, that's an interesting
way to think about it.

And it's funny 'cause I, I don't always
think about it directly in sales.

I generally think about like,
Hey, what's AI gonna do in

three to five years in general?

Uh.

It's, it's hard to guess.

Uh, I, I think definitely
an increased role.

I don't think, I think
that part's obvious.

What does that increased role look like?

I'm not sure.

I, I think that within
the next couple years,

AI is going to do.

A lot of, I, I think it's automatically
gonna seamlessly hit pretty much

all of our sales process and give
feedback and move things along in,

in a way that we haven't really
been able to be seen before.

And theoretically, I guess.

Even today, um, you could
have it acting pretty well.

It's just that you are limited on the API
models versus what's available within,

you know, just logging into chat gpt.com

or, or the other ones.

So the, the API models aren't
necessarily the best, um, yet, but

they're going to continue to increase.

And also, nothing's the
best right now, right?

Like everything in the next two to
three years is gonna be crazy, I think.

Um.

You know, Zuck is taking a very hard
stance on, uh, super intelligence and

AI glasses and, you know, wearing those
and that's going to like, give us all

this stuff that we're, you know, I
think he, they believe in two years

they're gonna have self training models.

Within the next couple years.

Um, that's, that's pretty, um, bullish.

I, I think, but I also
wouldn't be surprised at all.

I, I think the general, the general
public would think that's pretty bullish.

Um, where we're, we're
achieving self-training ai.

So what does that mean in
terms of the sales process?

I honestly haven't thought through that.

Uh, but I believe that salespeople
are gonna have real time insights

into these conversations.

I mean, if it is something like AI
glasses, you could be having these

things just pop up in front of you
like, hey, like, oh, you said this,

like, you should bring this up.

Right.

You know, like, like, you're missing
the math here, or something like that.

Right.

And it's just like right in front of you.

It's like, how much can, can you listen
and then respond at the same time?

But, um, and I think that that really
is like an evolution of wearing the AI

glasses in a different country where
it's translating for you, you know,

in terms of somebody speaking to you.

And then it's translating and.

Uh, doing that.

So, you know, I, I think we're
gonna get just much more integrated.

I, I think things, you know, even like
I'm working on at Closable, it's just

gonna be more of a seamless, quicker,
uh, integration into all the tools.

But the thing with a lot of AI tools
that I see, um, that, you know,

I, I just like to, to kind of say
like the weariness about is that.

I find that a lot of people that
are creating certain AI tools

or custom gpt to, to do things
or whatever it is, tend to be.

Uh, just built to do something
quick, but not necessarily with the

person who has the domain knowledge.

Right?

That's where, where I see the
opportunity for a lot of folks who have

domain knowledge to use AI because.

AI is something that you can
learn, uh, fairly efficiently and,

and, you know, fairly quickly.

And being able to do things like
what I'm doing@closableai.ai

with, with, you know, other industries,
other domains, other things is, you

know, taking the knowledge that you have.

Like for me it's in sales,
applying that using AI and help.

Augment humans with it and not
just these crappy like prompts

like you're a sales trainer.

Give feedback on this call.

Like it should be like
a very well-trained.

Version, and that's, those are the
things that I'm creating, right?

That I just don't see a lot
of these tools and softwares

doing well that are coming out.

Um, and I, I actually thought about
building a SaaS around it, but I, I think

SaaS is gonna die, um, pretty quickly
because I think what we can already tell

AI to create software within, you know,
a sentence, and it's not perfect right

now, but I think within the next like.

Year to two years, that vibe, coding
and stuff is gonna be very efficient and

very quick, and I just don't see the need
to create a system around that because.

I think it's like, why put the money into
that right now when I can still implement

pretty quickly with what I'm doing?

So I just think a better integration
level of AI is gonna be in things.

It's gonna be easier to do it, but
then also the ones that are gonna

win, or the ones that are actually
built with good domain knowledge and

not just generic prompts, because you
can think you're getting good results

with ai and that's the thing with
AI that you have to watch out for.

You can think you're getting good results.

And it tends to, you know, back scratch
you versus, you know, give you more,

uh, blunt feedback a lot of times.

But I think you gotta find ways to,
to make it work in the right ways, and

that's the hardest thing to decipher.

I think in these days, right now
with AI being in like, what I'll call

the wild West days of ai, I think
eventually it'll, it'll dial in a

little bit, but right now it's just ai

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I

Steven Werley: use it in some way.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: a
lot of great wisdom there.

Right.

no, I appreciate it.

So Steven, obviously closable.ai

is your website where

Steven Werley: Yep.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge:
uh, reach out to you.

Is there any other, um, platforms
you'd like to promote or any, uh,

Steven Werley: LinkedIn's a
great place to connect with me.

I, I would say, you know, my, I'm, I'm
sure it's on the title of the episode or,

or in the notes, but, uh, Steven with a v.

So if you look for me, Steven
Worley, uh, W-E-R-L-E-Y, easy place

to connect with me on LinkedIn.

Uh, happy to, you know, chat
with anybody and, and talk

about AI in, in whatever way.

So it's just a, a fun thing
to talk about right now and

continue to learn and grow and.

Meet and figure out what other
people are doing with it too, so

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Well, awesome.

I mean, hopefully somebody listening there
has a great, uh, you know, podcast needs

a great podcast guest because Steven,
you've given me so many great quotes and

Steven Werley: there we go.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: So,

Steven Werley: I appreciate that Reed.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Well, um.

Thanks again and I look forward
to future conversations.

Uh, hopefully we can stay in touch
and, uh, maybe collaborate future, uh,

Steven Werley: Absolutely.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: the future.

Alright.

Steven Werley: Thanks Reed.

Speaker 2: Want to stay ahead of what's
actually working in marketing right now.

Head over to Market surge.io

and see how we're helping businesses
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That's market surge.io

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