Inside Marketing with MarketSurge

Hello and welcome back to Inside
Marketing with Market Surge.

Today's guest is someone who
knows the ins and outs of digital

marketing like few others.

Rob Cairns is the founder and CEO
of stunning digital marketing, a

powerhouse agency known for its
expertise in WordPress development,

website security, and helping
businesses scale their online presence.

Robert is also a prolific
podcaster host of the SDM Show.

With over two decades of
experience in the digital space.

Rob has built a reputation as the
go-to expert for turning struggling

websites into conversion machines and
for saving businesses from website

disasters, his mission to make digital
marketing simple, secure, and effective,

and he's here to share some insights.

Rob, welcome to the show.

Thanks so much for having Such a pleasure.

Well, you know, it's been
really nice to get to know you.

Um, I had the opportunity to
guess on your podcast recently.

Yeah.

And that was a delight.

Um, Rob, tell us a little bit
about your journey and, and how

did it lead you to found and, and
run stunning digital marketing?

I.

It, it's a funny story.

Um, I was always in tech, so my dad
brought home, he was an insurance

business and he was a CFO at a toum one.

Personal computers weren't big and
he decided to convince his company to

buy him an Apple two plus at the time.

And at that time, VisiCalc was the
spreadsheet that sort of launched all

the spreadsheets we know now Lotus,
then Excel and whatever else we use.

And Dad found very quickly that
that Apple became as much minus

as companies very quickly.

'cause it's something
I took an interest in.

And then I took some computer
courses in high school.

And so I'm, I'm 57, so I'm
dating myself back to, uh, late

seventies or early eighties.

Um, I've even programmed on cards.

So I was at the end of the tail
punch card era, bubble card era.

Mm-hmm.

And then I decided I was bored.

I was really bored as a student in Quebec,
so if it wasn't computer science and it

wasn't history, I could have cared less.

Um, I used to go into history class and
read computer magazines under my, um.

I instructor's nose because
I was bored in his class.

'cause I was way ahead and
computers kind of kept me in school.

And then we moved, uh, from Montreal to,
uh, Toronto and, uh, here in Ontario, I.

The school system in high school
isn't based on just applied sciences,

it's got more business courses.

I took some more business courses,
realized that's what I wanted

to do, and I went to a community
college in Toronto, taking, believe

it or not, computer programming,
and I programmed for five years

professionally, old business systems.

So running a language called alt.

There's one for some of the
younger generation out there.

It's the language that many
business systems still run in.

Didn't really like it.

Always wanted to work
with personal computers.

And then got into, uh, personal computer
support in healthcare, uh, where I

was there in healthcare for 22 years.

I was a, a team leader, a client
support specialist, an on-call person.

And then left healthcare and
transitioned into web development

and running my own agency.

Now there's a funny story there that
when I was called a marketing teacher

who walking day one in the first year,
or butt on the desk, I'm being polite

and said, I'm only here 'cause I want my
summers off and I don't care about you.

And I teach from the book.

And I looked at her and said.

Give me the course outline.

I'll see you on exam days.

You won't see me the rest of the year.

Don't worry about me.

Goodbye.

And I'm done.

And, uh, the long short of it all was.

And I swore I would never go into
marketing and look where I am now.

So that's kind of how
I, how I got into it.

And then I've had a couple really
good mentors along the way and

people and been involved in the
community, which helps along space.

So yeah.

Fantastic.

So, um, you know, there's several
topics I'd like to cover with you

and, uh, one of them being security.

Sure.

But first, you know, if I can, I'd love
to ask about website development as a big

topic and, um, many in my audience are
entrepreneurs and small business owners.

And, um, you know, so I know
you work a lot with WordPress.

What I, if I do as a business is
considering building a website, what

are the considerations they should make
around the technology they use to, or

the platform they use to build it on?

So, I'm, I'm gonna shock everybody, but
tell the platform is less important than

the results generated by the platform.

So I'll say that right off the top.

So for me, a lot of the stuff
I do is WordPress just because

that's what I'm comfortable with.

But at the end of the day, I
think developers need to stop

selling to these companies.

What the platform is the, the average
business owner really doesn't care.

What the average business owner cares
about is getting traffic to his website.

Using that to generate leads
and using the leads to convert.

And that is the key.

So I'm gonna say the today's day
and age, the platform is less.

Now that said, there are some cost issues.

So depending what you wanna do.

So for example, in the e-commerce
space, you can go to Shopify.

And that's not a problem.

And they're a Canadian company.

They're based outta Ottawa, and
a lot of people don't get that.

When you go to something like some of
these coast platforms, depending on

what you wanna do, sometimes the costs
scale up and they always present it.

That here is a cheap price to start.

And then you start digging and say, but
I want this, I want this and I want this.

Do I.

Go to Shopify, or do I pay somebody
to do a custom, like a WooCommerce,

which is where press is e-commerce,
or do I go somewhere else?

And what it comes down to is
where you wanna put your budget.

Now that all said if somebody wants say a
four or five quick brochure site, meaning

a site, like an old paper brochure,
then the differences are less that you

gotta go to a platform than if you do.

Okay.

No, that makes a lot of sense and,
probably, helps to partner with

a wise, experienced, designer and
developer to help guide that decision.

You know, scaling is going
to be an early consideration.

Now the other topic I really wanted to
drill into and something admittedly I'm

not very well versed in is security.

So we do so much digital marketing online.

Almost every business, whether it's
the website, the ads or other digital

assets that we have stored online.

But I think a lot of small, medium
sized businesses and maybe others

are really putting security at
the bottom of their priority list.

Tell us a little bit about, why we
should move that up, the priority

list and what are some of the risks
that we should be thinking of?

So what I'll say right away to
start off is it's not uncommon for

companies to put security at the
bottom until they get bit once.

And then once they get bit,
their whole attitude changes.

So one of the things I suggest right
off the top for anybody, and I just

went through this with my partner,
Tiz yesterday, and I said, okay,

where are you storing your passwords?

And she said, they're in my
head and all over the place.

I said, why don't you
have a password manager?

That's the first thing, and
I said that to her yesterday.

So.

One of our little mini projects
next weekend is to work on

getting a password manager.

So rule number one in Fiona
Password Manager, you get one.

Uh, suggestions.

Bit Warden, it's open
source, works really well.

Or if you're on a Mac, one password on
any Apple ecosystem works really well.

They're the two that I really like.

The one that was the defacto standard up
until about three years ago was LastPass.

LastPass got bit by a major security
issue and didn't handle it properly,

so that's why I am not a LastPass fan.

Number one.

Number two, make sure you, I can't
even tell you what 95% of my passwords

are during the password manager.

Do yourself a favor and export that
list and high and put it in your safe

in your safety deposit box somewhere.

'cause if something happens to you,
somebody needs access to that list.

So I have an envelope in my safe
in the closet that says, only open

if in the state of an emergency.

It's in the safe.

So if somebody needs it, it's there.

That's number two.

And by the way, you should be doing this
for business and for home, because one of

the things we don't really do well, most
people, is manage their digital assets.

And then if something happens, or
in worst case, they die, we don't

know where they are, we don't
know who's got access to stuff.

Think about that now
take the time and do it.

Um, so rule number one with all digital
assets is you need to take backups.

Backups means three copies,
the original and two others.

I don't care if it's your
website, your personal files,

the stuff you work on every day.

Throwing stuff on Google Drive or on
one driver on Dropbox is not a backup.

That's a storage medium, unless
there's another copy somewhere else.

And if you're talking personal,
please, people think about your photos.

They are priceless and they
cannot be recreated in most cases.

I do that with photos too.

I use two photos sites plus OCO
copy so I can get at anything.

So that's number two.

In terms of website security.

Um, and all online security two factor
authentication, whenever possible.

That means you need a password plus an
authenticator key or a code in an app?

Try to stay away from codes that
are text message to you because

there is phenomenal call sim j and
where people steal sim card IDs.

So be careful, if at all possible.

Don't do it.

Sometimes you don't have a choice.

For example, my bank.

So the alternative to the text,
uh, two factor authentication, uh,

is the code generator in the app

yeah, it is a is authenticator or
you can get an authenticator key.

They make them as well.

So I, I carry what's called an new key.

I actually have two of them.

They're in sync, so they just go in
and away I go, or the Authenticator

app, Google Authenticator, Microsoft
Authenticator, um, stuff like

that, that works really well.

But use the second step.

The other thing is make sure your
email password is different because

if they get your email password, they
can reset all your other passwords.

And don't use identifiers passwords.

So don't use names.

Your girlfriend's name, your wife's
name, your dog's name, your street name.

I use random numbers and I make
them that's why I use the password

manager 'cause it fills 'em in.

In terms of the web.

We'll kind of break
down the WordPress site.

First of all, backups.

But before we go to backups,
think about your web host.

Is your web host had a lot of problems?

Have they had a lot of security issues?

Are they responsive to security issues?

That kind stuff matters.

Your web hosting company should be
your partner, not your provider.

There's a big difference here.

I, I like to work with people that
are my partners, so that's important.

Are they gonna help you in a pinch?

Uh, two fa do backups.

'cause if worse comes to worse and you
get infected, you can always do a restore.

Now people say, how much should I backup?

Depends how busy the site is.

All my client sites are backed up nightly,
and I stash backups every third night.

Offline, do your software updates.

So when WordPress, there's
plugins and themes, makes you

update those on a regular basis.

Once a week is not enough
anywhere it used to be.

Now vulnerabilities come out
and they're exposed within

hours and minutes, not days.

So think about that.

Wow.

Um, in terms of, um, updates, WordPress
has an automatic update feature.

I don't recommend turning that on.

And the reason is, if it goes and
updates something in your way for a

day or away a couple days, sometimes
updates will crash the site.

So don't do that.

I would say do 'em manually.

Make sure you do that.

Takes care of backups, so
you gotta way to recovery.

You got updates.

I like to run some security
software, so I'll run, uh.

A software firewall that will stuff things
like bot attacks and things like that.

Other things to look for on your forms,
your contact form, how people contact you.

We've all seen form spam where
somebody goes to a website and they

fill out, or a bot goes there and they
fill in and you get spammy emails.

I have political.

Clients very common.

They'll get 50 to a hundred these
in a day, and it's excruciating.

Um, get a form that the form
package you're running supports

what's called CloudFlare Turnstile.

So CloudFlare is the big DNS
provider out on the internet and

cloud Fir turt style is basically.

A fancy way of doing Google captures.

You know those little captures
where you got tick off the boxes?

Yes.

Except it's all automated and
it will stop spam in its tracks.

So there's many of the big
form packages, gravity forms.

I run WS Forms and WordPress.

Disclaimer, the developers a good friend.

It supports CloudFare, it stops
that spam in its tracks and then.

Do an audit of your site on a regular
basis, like go in and look and

say, okay, are the things going on?

And frankly, I don't believe
you can DIY security anymore.

I think we've gotten to the point where
if you wanna DIY, the website, fine,

but you should have a security pro in
your back pocket because it's gotten

really complicated the landscape.

Is changing every day.

Last week in the WordPress world,
um, solid wp, which puts out

one of the big, uh, emails every
week, newsletters had 300 security

vulnerabilities and themes and plugins.

So the average business owner doesn't
have time to do this, so they should

concentrate on making money and get
somebody, frankly, to do it for them.

Wow, that, that was a
lot of great information.

Do you find yourself being engaged?

Do you find yourself being pulled
in to do security only engagements

or are you primarily supporting
your uh, you know, web development

with the security insights you have?

I do a bit of both, but I do more on
the security side 'cause I've kind

of positioned myself that way on that
side of it, not the marketing side.

But you know, the web development is
a challenge these days because I like

to describe web development buying
options on a cart or a menu in a

restaurant, and you get what I mean.

So they walk into the restaurant
and you say, okay, i'm gonna

start with a rum and coke.

I don't know what you drink,
but that's my drink of choice.

Then I'm gonna start with a salad,
then I'm gonna have an appetizer.

And by the way, this restaurant
doesn't offer a fixed price menu.

Okay?

So let's get that right off the
table and then I'm gonna have a

second appetizer, and then I'm gonna
have a top of the line prime rib.

And then I'm gonna have a dessert.

Okay, so drink two appetizers.

Pre dinner a major dinner and a dessert.

So we got five items.

Guess what?

These items all have costs,
and it's no different.

So you put the pieces together and
you start charging for each piece.

The average customer.

Doesn't get that.

They don't get that.

Everything they add increases
the cost of a project.

They want everything and they
want it all included, and it just

doesn't work that way to be fair.

Have you found that AI capabilities,
have supplemented, some people

wanting to do it themselves or, have
you found AI tools to be helpful

to you as the website developer?

Where, where do you
stand on that spectrum?

So, I'm all in with Google Gemini.

I have been for a long time.

So a couple good things for your Gemini.

Rewriting will say copies, so write
your copy and then turn around.

If you're not gonna employ a
copywriter, the next best thing

is to turn around, feed it into an
AI product and say, rewrite this.

One of my favorite prompts is
rewrite the fine text for SEO.

And here it's, I do that.

Yeah.

Um, even my podcast, my show notes
are AI generated outta Gemini.

Um, I'm working on some
books from the podcast.

They're AI generated.

You can write marketing copy for emails
in AI generate, so it's not really web.

Um, I'm working on a project right
now for a good friend of mine and,

uh, I'm taking all their product
descriptions for WooCommerce.

They're all going into ai.

These are the ones out there off their
drop ship, their supplier's website and

AI still rewriting them to be even better.

So that, yeah, it has all kinds of
uses and now you can use AI even to

manipulate websites, but you still
need a human in the middle of it all.

And that's what people forget with ai.

Do you feel like, so maybe
we could go back to the, um.

Security vulnerabilities and
specifically to ai, the tools that

we're using, um, have, have those
presented some new security concerns.

I.

Uh, that, that didn't exist before.

You know, we, we have a lot of automated
communication bots, voice and chat.

We have, um, you know, I think
it's probably increased the amount

of spam emails and potentially
dangerous emails that are coming in.

Um, what are your thoughts
on AI and, and web security?

So the biggest problem with spam
emails and especially phishing schemes,

it's worth going there, is it used
to be we could spot them by all the

spelling mistakes and everything
else, now the biggest problem is,

there's no spelling mistakes and
the graphics and emails are getting

even better and more realistic.

So AI's helping the scammers and the
hackers find vulnerabilities faster.

So they're using ai, believe
me, as much as we are.

If you're using a service provider
and they say, please turn on

voice validation, don't do that.

AI can replicate your
voice, so don't do it.

Especially for somebody like
me who's got 500 plus podcasts.

My voice is out there.

Yours is out there.

So don't do that.

It's making it a little more challenging,

the other thing that's helping is some
of these companies have bounty programs

as well like Patch Stack in the WordPress
space has a bounty program, so people

are turning in vulnerabilities faster.

So there's good and there's bad it's just
how you manage it and how you handle it.

Um, yeah.

I'm just not, you know, like not
really well immersed in that, so

that, it's helpful to hear these tips.

So Rob, let's talk a little bit
about your agency and, you know,

how you've evolved your agency.

Now you do a full spectrum of
digital marketing, services.

How has that evolved over time?

I think you mentioned that,
web development may have been a

bigger part of your business and
it's shifted, to other services.

What do you think, is the balance,
a few years ago versus today?

Yeah, so when I started, I
was doing 90% web development.

I was doing very little anything else.

So I wasn't doing a
lot of email marketing.

I wasn't doing a lot of ads.

I wasn't playing that spectrum well,
folks having a website is not good enough.

It's a tool in your marketing toolbox.

It used to be if you did a website,
people would just find you.

It doesn't work that way anymore.

You need to get people
there, so ways to do it.

Email marketing's a big part
of our business and we've run

spectrums from all over the place.

From everything from Keep slash
Infusionsoft by its old name

to convert kit to MailChimp to
active campaign you name it.

I've managed lists as big as a
hundred thousand people for clients.

So I've done lists that big and some of
them being simple newsletters, some of

them being what we call market automation.

So if you click on a link, you might
get a second email that directs you

somewhere else, depending on what you do.

That's number one.

And email marketing is far from dead.

It's still the most successful
marketing tool in your tool books.

Box outside your website?

We do a lot of local marketing, so that
means Google Business profiles big places.

Those are the two big keys, and then
you got the Yelps and the, you know, all

the specialized sites on top of that.

That can matter.

Google business profiles still rank very
well for Google, so worth considering.

Now that's changing because
of AI again in search, right?

That's changing my skip a bit.

PPC ads, pay per click ads the fastest
way to ROI return on investment.

So the big two are Facebook
and Google, and then there's.

Things like Reddit and LinkedIn.

LinkedIn is actually the most expensive
ad out there, but it's the only ad network

that you target people by position.

So it depends on what your budget
is and what you're trying to do.

There's that.

We do some social media
management for clients, that.

Don't wanna run their social profiles.

There's some of that.

So really a whole spectrum.

I also with some companies, I've
got some regular ones on the go.

I do a lot of one-on-one consulting
or I sit on some marketing group

boards and kinda liaison with the
company and their agency and kind

of help direct that traffic flow.

So I have some of that going on as well.

Now, you know, I'd really like
to talk about your podcast.

You mentioned, that you've done over
500 episodes, which is daunting.

You know, this podcast, I think as of
recording, I think I've just published

my 15th and thinking of 500 just
sounds, very far off like a dream,

but, you know, I'm so impressed.

How has that aligned with growth
of your agency or supported,

your journey or your clients?

What do you think is the best thing
you've taken away from the podcast?

Yeah, can I walk you through the
journey for a minute too, please?

And tell you how it started?

So what happened was COVID hit
and I was at home and I was bored.

I was really bored.

And then I had a friend of mine.

His name was Mark Reb and he does some
work with a company called Send Out Cards.

And the founder of Send Out Cards is a
gentleman by the name of Cody Bateman.

And Mark said to me, can I
send you Cody's latest book?

And the book is entitled
The Human Connection.

And it talks exactly what it is.

It's about making connections
with people like you and I

have done right and doing that.

And I said to Mark, I
said, I'll take the book.

But I wanna record an interview
about the book for YouTube channel.

That's my standard answer.

You can send me anything you want, but
then you better be prepared to put it up.

So that was interview number one.

Then number two, then number three, and
before you knew it, I had 10 and I had 20.

When I started the podcast, I
actually started two podcasts.

Don't do that to yourself and
give yourself some breathing room.

And it just kind of morphed into what
we've now got is one podcast, which I

usually put out two or three times a week,
depending on where my schedule is at.

I try to do a combination
of, uh, short tips.

So I might, last week I did a quick tip
show, which I'll talk about in a sec

'cause there's a special one, and then
I'll do interviews like I did with you

or other guests where we'll sit down
and drill into a topic of interest.

I am.

Now at the point where I have people
coming to me every week to be on the

podcast, so SEO guys who keep telling
me my website can't be found and my

business can't be found, go away.

I'm being really nice, but.

I woke up Saturday morning.

I had four requests for people
wanting to be on the show.

And one of the things, as you know,
'cause you've been through the

process I do, is when I don't know
somebody, I jump on a pre-call.

We talk about it, we see if
it's a fit, if it's good, we

book a time, we do an interview.

I've used a multitude of
platforms for the show.

I've used everything from Streamy Yard
to you name it, and for me, I settled,

believe it or not, back on Zoom.

And a lot of traditional podcasters
are gonna hate me for doing that.

But it works and it works well,
and it a no-brainer for me.

So, um.

I was saying to you before we went there,
I almost gave the podcast up last year.

I was, uh, I took a diabetic
scare with an abscess and I

spent eight days in the hospital.

I did a lot of thinking and my partner
and I, uh, seroni, kind of kicked my butt

and said, you can't give up your business.

You can't give up your podcast, and
I'm not putting up with you if you

give up your business and your podcast.

So.

If you listen to my show, my podcast
is dedicated to three people.

My parents, my dad is no longer alive.

He died, uh, 15 years ago,
July, ate the pancreatic cancer.

My mom, who's still alive and well,
she's 80 and rightfully so because of

all her inspiration she gives me, um,
so much so I just talked about it in

episode five 50 where we, I threw out
to, 'cause a couple people had asked

me why, why I dedicate my, my podcast

and frankly I dedicate a lot of stuff
I do to her 'cause her inspiration

means everything inside me.

So that's kind of the journey.

And um, thank you.

You know, now I love that
you've, been able to.

Make this into a human connection.

And, um, yeah.

So, you know, my journey,
just in brief, is similar.

I'm, much earlier on the path, but,
just had an idea to reach out to a

few of the business podcasters that I.

Followed and did more and more
and started to cast a wider net.

I came across your podcast, reached
out, and, you were gracious enough to

allow me to be a guest and, I learned
so much I do think, these connections

are everything, you know, we're in
different time zones, different countries

and it's been nice to have these
conversations and connect I'd recommend

it for more people to, do a podcast.

You know, it's very low barrier to
entry and, it's been so valuable.

Really appreciated.

The dirty little secret about podcasting,
and I'll share it, I don't know if I've

shared this with you before, is you
get your guest for half hour, an hour,

however you want, you get your own
little private masterclass task with

however you wanna ask within reason,
and then you build that relationship.

And I've got friends who.

Our dear friends, all
because of podcasting.

So that is invaluable.

Let on the traffic it
puts on the business.

Yeah.

Well, well, absolutely.

Well, you know, and even just today, I,
I mean, I was, I was taking notes, uh,

for things that I'm going to implement
this week and, um, so thank you and

thank you for appearing on the podcast.

Where can people who would like to follow
your podcast or learn more about your

agency, where should they find you online?

Two, two easy places.

Uh, stunning digital marketing.com

is the agency site.

Rob Karens xyz is a personal site.

The personal site is a little different.

It's more a flavor to what
I'm thinking about to.

Maybe I was out on the weekend and
I might, there's some more personal

pictures there, but it's pretty wide open.

So if you want a personal flavor
that will do, um, social networks.

LinkedIn is a good place.

Do a search.

Um, there's also links on the main site.

Uh, the podcast is on the
blog in the main site.

It's on all pod major podcast platforms.

So Apple, Spotify, which hosts it.

Um.

It's also on YouTube so you can go there
as well, and that's probably the easiest

place and if you need anything, reach out.

I've also got two Substack, one that has
technical hints and a separate one that

goes out every Monday that's devoted to
recap of the previous week's podcast.

So feel free to.

Subscribe to those as well.

We'll connect with Rob
and you won't regret it.

He is a knowledge machine and
you know, so many outputs and I

feel like we're very fortunate to
have, spent some time together.

Thank you.

well thanks Rob, and we
will talk again soon.