Inside Marketing with MarketSurge

Welcome to Inside Marketing
With Market Surge.

Your front row seat to the
boldest ideas and smartest

strategies in the marketing game.

Your host is Reed Hansen, chief
Growth Officer at Market Surge.

Reed: Hello and welcome to Inside
Marketing With Market Surge, your

front row seat to the boldest Business
Insights Marketing breakthroughs

in entrepreneurial real talk.

I'm your host Reid Hansen, and I'm the
Chief Growth Officer at Market Surge.

We turn tools into systems
and systems into growth.

Each week, we cut through the
fluff to bring you tactics, tech,

and takeaways you need to scale
smarter, faster, and even louder.

guest is Jesse Gilmore, founder
of Niche and Control, and a

seasoned agency scaling strategist.

Jesse built his reputation helping
service-based businesses break

free from the success trap.

By architecting Bulletproof
Systems so you can step out of the

day-to-day and truly lead as a CEO.

He's guided dozens of agencies
to double digit growth without

burning out their teams.

And he's here to share his must
have tech stack, the metrics that

matter and which fictional hero best
embodies his approach to business.

get ready for a masterclass
turning chaos into control.

And Jesse, I'm really glad
to have you on the show.

Welcome.

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Yeah.

Thank you so much, Reid.

that's awesome.

Thank you for the intro.

Reed: You bet.

Well, so let's just jump right in.

Jesse, you, um, I did like the
statement I saw in a few places.

Uh, you mentioned breaking
free from the trap of success.

So now you

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Mm-hmm.

Reed: owners.

Can you walk us through the moment
you realized you needed to build

systems and how that insight led
you to create niche and control?

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Yeah, absolutely.

So, uh, Nich and Control is
actually my fourth business.

Uh, my first three, um, became
successful from the outside, but the

inside I was working 80 hour weeks
for years and led towards burnout.

And I actually dissolved three businesses.

Uh, not really understanding systems
and not really understanding, uh, what

exponential growth can actually be.

the whole business was
based around my skills.

So if I didn't work, work didn't get done.

And, uh, it wasn't until I started
learning systems in corporate.

And then I started to understand a
bit more about duplication of people.

Uh, I was a corporate, um, so
in corporate I worked in a $4

billion global corporation.

Um, and my sole mission was to remove
what's called single points of failure.

And if any one of these terms
you wanna dive deeper into,

we can definitely do that.

But I.

Uh, over the five years, um, I built
these systems to basically make it to

where in the corporation people could
switch, uh, who's doing the work,

but the customer wasn't impacted.

And the interesting thing about
the corporate work, uh, that

I did was it was basically the
solution to my previous businesses.

And so it wasn't actually until,
um, the, the, the systems that we

had built in corporate led towards
a business acquisition, uh, that I

started realizing, Hey, actually I
have something here and I really wish.

Um, you know, I would've known
that in my previous businesses.

And so I developed, uh, a method
that basically does that thing,

uh, for, uh, entrepreneurs.

And it wasn't until I started
working with agency owners that I

realized they got the best results.

and, uh, basically made a whole
business based around helping marketing

agency owners be able to scale.

And I give that context because
breaking free of the trap of success

is where, uh, you kind of have like.

The growth that everybody
is talking about.

Like, you hit the 30,000 a month,
or you hit the a hundred thousand

or whatever the thing is, you
know, but you feel less fulfilled.

Uh, you're working too much.

You're not able to spend
time with the family.

You start sacrificing
different parts of your life.

for that business to succeed.

And in the end, from my own personal
experience, and I'm realizing it, the more

that I tell this story, the more people
are like, I actually, I am, I'm there.

You know?

There needs to be a path out of that,
that breaking free, you can still

succeed, but not at the sacrifice of you.

Reed: I love it now.

Uh, you know, people that have tuned into
this podcast know that I too am an agency.

Owner and I, um, I'd love to hear this.

And so selfishly I am, um, maybe asking
a few questions just so I can learn

and do better with my own agency.

So, um, you know, the fantastic,
I'm paying very close attention.

Uh, tell me a little bit why, you know,
you said something interesting, why

agency owners, um, you know, your approach
is more effective for agency owners.

Um, I'm, I'm curious.

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

So, uh, in a way beginning
of niche and control.

Ironically, I did not have a
niche, so, I think everybody would

laugh at my first, like website.

It was like coaching and
consulting to grow your business.

it wasn't until I started to work with
different types of companies that,

Like I worked with a B2C SaaS company
and helped them with systems, and

then I helped with, a copywriter.

And it was funny with a
copywriter, I was like, how long

does this process usually take?

And they're like, three weeks.

And I was like, if you move this over
here, it'll actually be a lot less.

And he's like, I can
now do that in a week.

And I was like, oh, that's kind of cool.

Uh, and it wasn't until I started
working with a digital marketing

agency owner, Warren, that I applied
a whole method to, the work together.

And what he was able to do was go from
15,000 per month with, him, his partner,

and another employee all the way up to a
hundred thousand per month in nine months.

Uh, and that is a crazy amount of growth.

and what's really interesting
about that was that.

He didn't really need
to understand marketing.

I'm not there to teach like, like Reid.

If you were a client of mine.

I'm not gonna teach you to be a better
SME or a subject matter expert in the

agency, but I can definitely teach you
on how to be a better entrepreneur,

where you're building systems and
people and hiring and empowerment.

To make it to where you're not
like stuck in the same way that

I was in the first businesses.

And what I found was is that agency
owners, because it's kinda like the

yin and the yang, if you, uh, are a
marketing agency owner, you understand

creativity, you understand growth, you
understand metrics, you understand,

um, you know, positioning and
messaging and all that kind of stuff.

That I can kind of help with,
but I'm not like the greatest at.

And you need like the other sides,
like the ying to the yang, where it's

like the systems and the logic and
the, the, uh, the pattern recognition

and the team growth and the hr.

So when you think about the reason
why agency owners get good results

from me is not because I own an
agency, I don't own an agency.

My whole business is actually based around
not an agency and teaching, uh, agency

owners how to become better entrepreneurs.

So, uh, results were the thing
that actually led us to be,

uh, focused on the niche.

Reed: Hmm, interesting.

So, I wanna drill in a little bit too.

obviously it's in the name of your
business, the niche in control.

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Mm-hmm.

Reed: you've referenced that,
you know, finding your own niche.

Now sounds like that's really important.

Why?

Why is that important to have a nee
I, sorry, I, I go back and forth

between saying niche and niche.

So, uh, forgive me if I, uh, mispronounce,
but what, what, what's behind that?

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Yeah.

I mean it's, um, well, I say niche, but
some people say niche and, uh, I it's okay

Reed: I, how do I.

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

either way.

Um, but basically for, for anybody
that might not even know what that word

is, uh, a niche is basically where you
start to focus or, or specialize in

targeting a certain group of people.

And when we think about niches,
my suggestion is that you look

at it from different layers.

Uh, the more niche you become, uh,
there's pros and cons to each one.

But, uh, as you become more niched or more
focused on a certain group of people, or

it may be even, a certain problem that
you solve, uh, it cuts through the noise.

So, for an example, if I.

Use the words.

Uh, you know, one of my clients, uh,
was spinning your wheels in her agency.

That one word, spinning your
wheels, you know, is a thing that

agency owners use all the time
with, like word choice, right?

And, uh, when we think about niches,
You know, if you're a generalist

agency right now, you are being
hit really, really hard by ai.

And I was re-listening to your AI talk,
uh, a little bit ago, and it's because

of this, the whole generalist, if you,
if you serve everyone, you actually

serve no one, and your marketing message
is really to the average person as

opposed to somebody very specific.

And what's really interesting about
niches is the more specific that

you get, the more it cuts through
the noise of all the kind of like

general stuff that's going on.

And what's really interesting is you
can become a specialist or an expert,

um, in a very small group of people
and just be the best at it in a very

short period of time when you're not
like spread a million different ways.

So I think that the niche itself
has been always, um, uh, a much

needed thing for scale and growth.

And we can talk about the science
of growth and minimizing variables

and all that kind of stuff.

But, um, I think that, that the niche
is actually more important now than

it ever has been for the reasons that
were probably in your previous episode

about AI and, uh, its disruption.

Reed: I love it.

Yeah, no, that's a great point.

And I have found, um.

you know, and Jesse, you know, this
is our first conversation, so I, um,

just by way of background, I, um, I'm
relatively new to the agency world.

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Yes.

Reed: Uh, I bought the market search
agency a little over a year ago, and,

um, we have gone through a process
of, um, not necessarily by design,

but are the large body of our.

Clients were photographers.

And so, you know, by default we're, you
know, a specialist in that, in that niche.

And when we, um, started growing,
uh, you know, and really emphasizing,

uh, new, adding new clients, we,
um, were seeking additional niches

to, uh, um, build in and, um.

So, you know, but it is been an
interesting exercise, but we've

had to be kind of deliberate.

We've had a few, like false starts,
like, you know, uh, go down the path

on one niche, uh, it's not really
a good fit, and then try another.

And, um, but our focus efforts
have been been, uh, much better

than just kind of like a general,
like, Hey, we do marketing.

You know, that just
isn't, that isn't working.

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Mm-hmm.

Reed: So let's talk a
little bit about tech.

do you go as far as designing
processes with tech in mind or,

um, like are there tech platforms
that you really like that, that you

recommend, uh, for your owner clients?

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

It, it's funny because this question has
been asked, uh, in previous podcasts, and

I don't think that the podcast, uh, like
person before liked my answer, but, uh.

Reed: Well, no judgment here.

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Yeah.

So, uh, in actuality I am, uh,
software or platform agnostic.

And, uh, the reason being is that, um,
I'm more focused around effectiveness

Reed: Hmm.

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

uh, what I wanna make sure before we even
get into software and like certain types

of tech or even automation or AI agents
or whatever, uh, is if you have processes

right now that are in your head and you're
thinking about AI agents, it doesn't work.

You have to go through a series.

And I was literally just
talking in my mastermind.

Two hours ago about this
very specific thing.

So it's very timely.

but when we think about tech, the
tech really has to fit whatever

is effective and gets you results.

And when we think about processes, the
processes themselves, when you're building

SOPs or building operational systems.

Uh, if you don't necessarily
have a clear process mapped out

that's effective, start there.

And then from there determining
if it's effective, then you can go

into software systems or so forth.

And what you're looking for in the
software is to just basically make it

easier and faster and more effective, um,
to be able to do that certain process.

So I have a more of like an inside
out approach to growth and so forth.

And, for anybody that's looking at like
what type of tech to use, there's a

thing called a requirements matrix and
there's like a systematic way of actually

looking at softwares based around your
priority and features and so forth.

Um, so I would go through a very
systematic process, but that might

be my corporate background talking.

So, yeah.

Reed: No, no, no.

I mean, I, I think that's
illustrative of your approach.

Um, are there certain categories
that you recommend marketing agency

have, so, you know, an example might
be, project management software.

Is that something that
you see as essential?

Um, and maybe like if you had
a couple other, large bucket

areas that might be helpful

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Sure.

Reed: to look through.

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Yeah, absolutely.

So, CRM, uh, absolutely necessary
for pipeline and, and so forth.

Um, I've used many different ones.

If you're going after, uh, sales and
like, you wanna have a really good one

for specifically prospecting and sales.

Close.

CRM is a really good one.

Uh, I've used it for years.

We're just switching outta that to
an all-in-one, um, for our own self.

project management systems, uh, is
necessary, but you build processes

first because it gives you the outline
for what you'd actually put into

a template or, um, a client folder
within a project management system.

So a lot of people rush
towards the system.

Again, not focused on the
process and effectiveness.

Focus on the process first and
then move it into the system.

Project management systems, uh,
can be a range of complexity.

Um, in the way beginning.

If you're just trying to figure out
task management, you have a small

team, something as simple as Trello is
totally fine if you're looking for more

automations and, and kind of things.

clickup is good.

Um, I haven't gone so far into the
agile side of like, JIRA and whatever.

Um, depends on what type
of agency it actually is.

Reed: Yeah, and,

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

so

Reed: not trying to

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

yeah.

Reed: towards specifics.

I think that's helpful to, you know,
like CRM project management, like

those are definitely Um, but yeah.

anything else, any other big
bucket categories or that

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Absolutely.

Yeah.

So once you capture, the processes
and you've started mapping it out in

project management systems, typically
you use, something low fidelity

like a Google Doc or whatever.

But eventually you get to a place
where revision and document management,

becomes kind of like a needed thing.

So a knowledge management system like
Help Scout or a couple other different

softwares like that will be beneficial.

And you link the knowledge management
system with your project management

system, which makes it a lot easier
for you to assign work and people know

exactly what to do right from the get go.

when I think about other systems.

I would also look at, if you already have
the sales system with a CRM, you're gonna

wanna look at some way of generating.

leads in some form.

So a marketing system, depending
on what platform you're using.

I instruct a lot of
clients to use LinkedIn.

LinkedIn is really beneficial
for new connections and cutting

through gatekeepers and so forth.

LinkedIn's really hard on automations
right now, which makes a lot of sense.

But, any way of generating, the interest
from a prospecting side would be good.

There's probably more systems, but
those are kinda like the ops side.

And then, the sales and marketing side.

Reed: No, that's awesome.

And I, um, did touch on the SOPs that
I thought was, uh, really important.

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Mm-hmm.

Reed: Um, it's really important
to document if you're gonna have a

process, it needs to be documented.

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Mm-hmm.

Reed: How frequently are you?

I guess how widespread of a
problem is it that processes are

not documented or documented?

Well, um, mean, I imagine that's
probably enough to build a whole on.

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Yeah.

If that was the only thing that we
focused on with agencies, uh, we

would've a line out the door, you know?

but yeah, I think, SOPs, I think
one of the illustrations that

I'd have you consider, I kind of
talk in parables and stories a

lot to kind of get like a visual.

So when you think about
SOPs, SOPs are kind of like.

the leaves off of a branch.

When you think about a business
management system, which is ultimately

what you're trying to create, okay?

A business management system is a
system that lives without you, right?

And so if you, the founder, are creating
this business management system, uh,

that basically houses everything you,
and then it's the connection between

CRM and your project management system.

Everything else we were talking about
and the people working within it.

When we think about that, the business
management system is the trunk of a tree.

Okay.

It's like the unmovable parts, the same
things that don't really move right.

And even in there you could have
like policies of the organization,

depending on how big you are.

Then from there, you start going
into the branches of that, and the

branches are your process workflows.

So visual workflow of your client
onboarding process, a visual

workflow of whatever it's, you
know, and from there, those branches

eventually from the process workflow.

Each individual process
should have its own SOP.

Or like a standard, right?

So it's the branches of that.

A lot of people focus on SOPs first.

And the problem with it is, is that when
you build systems, if you don't have a

definition of done, it's like forever.

It's like that you just like
get stuck in this void of like,

how many SOPs am I gonna create?

And there's no organizational
structure and it just sucks.

Okay?

It's coming from an ops guy, you know?

Um, and so.

what I instruct all clients to do, and
what I would suggest for anybody that

is a marketing agency owner and you're
trying to build systems and you've just

been building a bunch of SOPs, I take
two steps back and I start looking at

all the different services that you
offer and all the different kind of roles

within your organization currently, and
just do this like big brain dump of all

the crap that you actually do, right?

And then from there, go.

Okay, when's the beginning
and end of each one of these?

What's the beginning and end of a.

Uh, client onboarding.

When's the beginning and end
of a set up a campaign, right?

And then from there, brainstorm
the list of all the different

things that happen in there.

And those are your processes.

Make it visual and make sure that's good
before you start building a bunch of SOPs.

And every one of those processes
can be an OP, and then you

have a definition of done.

Does that make sense?

Reed: Yeah.

Oh, absolutely.

And.

you know, I, I love to hear somebody
and like an ops expert describe that.

You know, it's something we've attempted
to do, uh, and we have a few SOPs in

place describing, you know, successful
processes, but there's just a lot.

We don't, and, uh, you know, and
I, I think there's an opportunity

to make our existing ones better.

And, you know, I, I, um.

Uh, you know, I'm, I'm hearing
a lot of this and I'm like, you

know, I've, I've got a lot of
things I need to do for my agency.

So this has been great for me.

Um, now let's, let's change gears a little
bit and I, I, I'd like to have a little

fun with this and, um, you know, I think
we, have a pretty good understanding of.

Of like your mindset, but to help
people visualize, you said you're a

storyteller and you like allegory, and

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Mm-hmm.

Reed: what would you say is like
a fictional character or, uh, you

know, whether it's from a movie or a
book or some sort of, um, depiction

in media that would really, uh,
describe your, your approach or

your role, your, your, uh, career.

You know, how would you, how
would you, um, that imagery?

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Fair.

Yeah.

Uh, what's funny is that I was thinking
about this question when you did it in

the intro, at the fictional part, and the
only thing that comes to mind is Yoda.

Now, I'm not saying I'm like some
Jedi master, whatever, but it's

more so like just my approach.

Um, because, you know, after do
building systems for 11 years, half in

corporate, half in, um, niche controlled.

And then also looking at the,
decade in entrepreneurship where

I failed numerous times, right?

There's a lot of like learning through
failure or through experience that.

Uh, I seem to guide, uh, more of a guide
than I am, like, you know, some superhero.

Like I would never say that I'm like
Superman, you know, you know, uh, I'm

a lot more of like, Hey Reed, you,
you took over the company a year ago.

Here's a couple of things
for you to think about.

And then from there, what do you think
is the highest priority and so forth.

And way more of like the guiding kind of
person as opposed to, um, like the hero.

And I think of all of my clients
as like the Luke Skywalker and

you're like learning different
skills and you're learning how to.

You know, use a lightsaber and use the
force, you know, which might just be

like intention and vision, you know?

Uh, so, yeah.

Reed: No, I mean, that's
a great, uh, description.

And, you know, I think, um, uh, you
know, really empowering your, your

clients or students, you know, to,
uh, be powerful on their own is,

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Mm-hmm.

Reed: You know,

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Mm-hmm.

Reed: a lot of us are in business
doing the work for clients and,

uh, probably wish we did more
teaching or more enabling like that.

that's great.

Um,

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

okay if I dive into a model real
quick just to kind of paint this?

Reed: That would be

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Okay.

Reed: Yes.

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

So, uh, we've gone through six versions
of what's called Leverage for Growth,

and I could talk more about that,
but for you guys, uh, I wrote a book,

the Agency Owner's Guide to Freedom.

I'll give Reid the link so you
guys can get a free copy of that.

Um, but what I've found is that
typically there are five main stages,

and this is not in the book, but five
main stages that you're going through.

And if you understand that as an
agency owner that's trying to.

Grow to a place where
you're more of a visionary.

You work in the business when you want
to, you can scale it or you could sell it,

you could do all those kinds of things.

The pathway is always the same.

And it's interesting, I had a conversation
earlier this week about valuation and one

of our, newer strategic partners is a m
and a person, specifically for agencies.

And I talked about this and they're
like, oh my God, it is like,

that's how the valuation goes up.

And I was like, exactly right.

but typically what happens is that
You start off a marketing agency being

the subject matter expert, right?

you don't have a large
team doing all the work.

You're usually the person who's
doing it, and you might be

good at SEO or ads or whatever.

And so the first stage of your
business is you're a subject matter

expert, and the second stage is
where you turn into a trainer.

Okay, and the only way to actually do
that is to build out the systems and the

SOPs and be able to make it to where you
have assets to train somebody effectively.

Okay?

Now the mindset, the tools, the tactics,
the skills that go from subject matter

expert to trainer are different.

And this is the reason why we talk
about transformational all the time.

I'm not a transactional coach,
I'm a transformational coach.

'cause I'm focused on the transformation.

Going from subject matter expert
to trainer requires different

skills, abilities, you know, all
that kind of stuff from trainer.

The next stage, once you start
training people and they're starting

to do pretty good, is manager.

Okay?

And that's a different
skill, trade tactic.

Everything systems need to
be developed for management.

Otherwise you get sucked back into
either doing the work or being a trainer.

Right?

And eventually you get to a place
where you're managing trainers and.

Once you get into management,
you're just running the business.

You're not leading it,
you're just running it.

And you get to a certain place where
the management becomes something

that somebody else takes over.

'cause you built enough systems, you move
into the next stage, which is leadership.

Leadership is fundamentally
different than management.

Management is running day to day.

It's, it's, it's, uh, more focused around
the how and the when, where the leader is

more focused around the what and the why.

And when you can have a place where
you're developing your leadership, what's

interesting is, is that you have to
take more time away from the business.

And it's fundamentally different
from a lot of people's like mindset

of like leadership and leading
an organization and so forth.

When you step into leadership, you
get to a place where eventually

you start having leaders.

Underneath you and you develop leaders,
which means that you move into visionary.

So it goes from subject matter
expert to trainer, to manager,

to leader, to visionary.

And what's interesting is if you listen to
me and Reid talk about this, which we're

probably gonna dive deeper into, uh, and
you find yourself in one of these stages,

you know exactly what you need to do.

If you're a subject matter expert,
you need to become a better trainer.

If you're a trainer right now, you
need to become a better manager.

If you're a manager right now,
you become a better leader.

If you're a leader right now,
you need to focus on vision.

It's like it gives you a path.

And at least from a really high level,
and then when it comes to the tactics,

that's why you get coaching, so,

Reed: No, I love it.

You know, and, and I, so one thing that
I was thinking of as you were describing

that is would you advise somebody.

In an agency role that's a,
uh, SME subject matter expert.

And they love what they do.

They like for, you know, pick anything in
a agency, but like, uh, they love SEO and

that's like that, that keeps them going

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

mm-hmm.

Reed: they love less, like leading people.

you know, obviously it's
essential to grow like you, you

need that kind of development.

What, what do you advise for
people in that situation?

They just like, I just really wanna
do like, more SEO tasks, or I really

wanna, um, you know, I just wanna design
webpage all the time or something.

how would you, um, talk them through that?

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Entrepreneurship and expanding an agency
or an organization to the nth degree that

is possible is a path for some people.

Okay.

Uh, your definition of success
has to be defined internally, not

externally, meaning all the marketing
messages that are out there.

They're saying you need a seven
figure agency in order for you

to feel freedom is bullshit.

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry if I swear, but, uh,

Reed: It's a family podcast, you
know, lots of kids tuning in.

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

I'll hold back and hold back, but,
it is extremely important for you to

create your own definition of success.

And if that definition of success is
that you have an agency that allows

you to focus on the things that you
like to do with clients the most.

And everything else is
to allow that to happen.

That is what's called a
centralized business model.

Just know you'll get to a certain
place where you can't scale it

beyond a certain point, right?

Like just, just naturally.

Unless you hire a CEO that does all
the other stuff and you're like.

a part of the organization being
that subject matter expert,

which might be a path for you.

One of the things that we do with
clients is we get them to understand

what's called a unique ability.

Unique ability is actually a term, from
Dan Sullivan, where he talks about, you

know, who are you innately meant to be?

if you were a client of ours and
you would go through the unique

ability, you're filling out a
bunch of different assessments.

You're getting to understand the
commonality between maybe like a col ba

and a StrengthsFinder and a Myers-Briggs
and an ocean and whatever else.

And that commonality basically paints a
picture of how we should position you.

So if we can position you according to
your strengths, you feel more fulfilled,

you might not have to do as much work.

And if that thing is based around
the building of the websites.

Then you might have to hire somebody
else that does the growth side, right?

But most likely, if you've been in
business for a longer period of time,

you eventually hate parts of the
work, like building the websites.

There's parts of that that you
don't really wanna do, and maybe

the role is more of a senior
website builder, and then the junior

people are working underneath you.

That's still a growth piece, right?

So.

It really depends, like you're gonna have
to prioritize as an entrepreneur, what

is the most important priority for you?

Is it ultimate expansion or
is it doing exactly what you

love within the organization?

And you might get to a place where
you just wanna have the choice and

everything that I'm talking about
right now gives you that choice.

Reed: Yeah.

No, I love it.

I deal with a lot of, um, in the
small and medium sized business space,

so, you know, I don't necessarily
have clients that are agency owners

themselves, but I picked up on a thread
of something you were describing that

I think is useful and just that like.

Sometimes like creatives or like
skilled technicians of some sort.

They're like, they just
don't wanna let go.

Like they're, they're really good
at what they do, and they just

can't envision handing that off.

And, um, but, I think that is a great
way to visualize that, you know,

and potentially, you, hire a CEO,
you know, that's a potential path.

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Mm-hmm.

Reed: I love it.

Um, so, Jesse, um.

Well, I'd be interested in a little
bit about your, like, personal, like

productivity hacks, you know, like what,
what, um, do you keep yourself busy and,

um, engaged and, um, you know, maximizing
your time, you know, as an expert in this

field, like how do you do it personally?

What do you, uh, what do you prioritize?

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Yeah.

So, um, one of the, the coaches that
I had, uh, taught me a thing that he

calls the core for, and it's called
Body Being Balance of Business.

Are you familiar with this, Reid?

Reed: I am not, no.

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Okay.

So, um, it's through Wake Up Warrior
and what it is, is this understanding

that in order for you to, uh, have
abundance in each part of your life.

Uh, body being, balance
and business, right?

Uh, then what you need to do is you
need to do these things called daily

deposits, or you do daily deposits in
each one of the categories, and over a

longer period of time, you grow in it.

So, I have embodied
this method since 2018.

So at the time of this
recording, it's 2025.

So for the last seven
years, what I've done.

Every morning, not always, like
with, without fail, but, um,

every morning what I'll do is
I'll start working through this.

So, uh, I'll wake up at about five 30
in the morning, usually before my kids.

I have three kids.

Uh, and, um, so that in itself
is its own kind of thing.

But I wake up in the morning
and I'll start going through it.

And the first thing I'll do is I'll
meditate for at least 10 minutes.

Then I'll go into, uh, journaling.

Uh, it's also a thing called
stacking, which is basically a

systematic way of doing journals.

And, what I'll do is I'll ask a question
and I'll just sit until I feel like an

answer, and then I'll write it down.

And I just do that over and over and
over again until I'm like, empty, right?

And then from there, uh, typically I need
to move my body and so I'll go for a run.

Um, there's a bunch of random like.

Uh, uh, wherever these things are.

Um, metals.

Metals right behind me
of like a, a marathon.

So, uh, before doing Wake Up
Warrior, I wasn't really a

marathon person, but now I am.

Uh, and what I'll do is I'll go
for a run and, and the question

is, is did I sweat today?

I'll come back from that, uh,
and I'll drink a green smoothie.

Um, and then right after that, I'll
spend time with my kids and, and

my wife, and I'll get breakfast
ready and I'll kind of get ready.

And then, um, sometimes on my run, what
I'll do is I'll listen to, uh, either

a book or, uh, something business
oriented that I'm trying to learn.

And then, uh, if it is something
that I want to pass on to my

mastermind group, I'll record a
video and I'll share it with them.

Um, but I'm doing that all before
my nine o'clock start time.

Uh, and what happens is, is that
that morning routine gives me so much

confidence and certainty in the things
that I'm saying and how I show up and

for my family and for myself as well
as my clients, um, that I never really

feel like I'm in a place of lack.

I.

Which is ultimately the key to being
a coach in the midst of serving people

that are getting disrupted, right?

You have to stay consistent and
you have to stay, uh, with that.

Um, I start at nine o'clock, I get
done by four 30 if I'm not upstairs,

uh, where my wife and kids are, by
five o'clock, she gets really pissed,

which is perfect because then it keeps
me in, in kind of like a, um, a realm.

The rest of the day I'm just focused on,
uh, the family until they go to sleep.

Then I'll read and I'll go to
sleep, and I always have that.

That, um, start, uh, start time at five 30
and it doesn't change on weekends either.

Um, there's a lot of like reasons
on why that is, but, um, it

keeps that, that consistency.

So that's a typical day.

Reed: That's awesome.

I don't know that often I have these
podcasts with guests and I feel

energized and inspired and, I definitely

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Awesome.

Reed: feel that is the case, uh, talking
to you and, um, you know, really,

really, uh, I think that's great.

All you're doing.

Um, yeah.

Years ago I used to run marathons,
um, and I'm actually, funny

enough, the last couple weeks
I've, uh, started running again.

Um, definitely need new shoes and new

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Asics.

That's right.

Reed: yeah,

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Yeah.

Reed: actually I do Asics as well.

I'm a kayano guy, so,

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Yeah, me too.

Reed: yeah.

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

is.

Reed: Small world.

Um, yeah.

Well, you know, actually I'll just
give you a little product tip.

this hat I'm wearing it's alter ego.

So I'm, a balding gentleman and, I have
had issues with, sweat coming down into

my face and into my ears for earbuds

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Yeah.

Reed: these hats, this alter ego brand has

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Okay.

Reed: really cool.

I, I'd recommend it, you know, it's, uh.

we also have this weird quirk,
sorry, total aside, but, um, I

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

That's all good.

Reed: Michigan here, and there's this
species of birds, this black bird with

these red spots on their wings, and
they attack bald, heads, you know, and

they just like, and, so like around
here, you have to do this for defense.

Sorry, total aside.

But, uh, just,

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

I gotta get it.

No, I bet you you're the
most stylish person running.

Reed: Well, yeah, there's a wide range.

Absolutely.

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Yeah.

Reed: know, I guess I do my best
in my middle age now, but, um, you

know, so, Jesse, let, let's, um.

I think, um, I'll ask you
one last question, um,

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Sure.

Reed: maybe I'll go back to kind of
the, um, little off topic questions.

But what,

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Mm-hmm.

Reed: of the, you said green
smoothie, you know, are

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Mm-hmm.

Reed: um, snacks or drinks or
uh, other things you keep around

yourself during the workday?

Things that, that help you
be more productive, like

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Sure.

Yeah.

I've never really thought of, well,
other than coffee, I've gotten

rid of a lot of addictions, like
alcohol and TV and whatever else.

Um, but, I think one thing I
can never get rid of is coffee.

And I'm like, so, uh,
I'm a coffee drinker.

I actually had, uh, like a mocha
right before this, so maybe that's

the reason why I'm talking faster.

Reed: No, you're great.

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

but yeah.

And then in the afternoon, um, typically
I'll have Like a sparkling water.

That's kind of like my thing.

It's a Trader Joe's.

You'd asked if it was LaCroix, but yeah,
just sparkling water, nothing that crazy.

Um, I'll typically have like, something
before lunch that kinda keeps me

energized, but that's about it.

Reed: Awesome.

Well, um, you know, there, I think
there's just been a wealth of great

advice and tips, and I think that
this speaks to just your wealth of

wisdom that, uh, would be particularly
applicable to any agency owners in.

The audience

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Mm-hmm.

Reed: interested in working with you or
reading your book, um, you know, like,

like learning more about getting their
agency in shape and themselves more CEO.

Like, how can they find you?

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Yeah, totally.

So I'm extremely active on
LinkedIn, linkedin.com/in/jessep

Gilmore.

I post five days a week, and you get an
insight glimpse into my world, with that.

But, I think if you're considering.

Anything niche and control oriented,
just go to niche in control.com.

we have a wealth of
different case studies.

A lot of our case studies are about
20 minutes long where people are

talking about what happened before,
during, and after working together,

and the transformations there.

So, all the social proof is there.

If, you are somebody who wants a copy
of the book, I basically took the method

from 2023 and granted we've gone through
two different versions of it since

then, but still, like 98% is the same.

if you want a free book, you can go
to niche and control.com/free-book

and I'll give you all these links read
so you can put it in the show notes.

I'll give you a digital file and you
can also find it on Amazon for 10 bucks.

but last but not least, if
anybody's interested in.

Experiencing me as a coach
without paying for me yet.

we have monthly master classes, where I do
a deep dive and actually I would suggest

that you, you check it out as well.

it's a, one day three hour intensive.

it's called the Profit Playbook.

And the next one, is in July 29th.

Uh, but you can go to events
dot niche control.com.

Uh, that's an evergreen link.

So as.

The next event comes, it goes right there.

Um, and that's where, uh,
I dive deeper into it.

I'm way more of a coach than
I am a, a salesperson, so

Reed: Awesome.

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

me as a coach.

Reed: Well, Jesse, it
has been a real pleasure.

I am so glad we connected.

Um, you know, I've learned a lot and
I think you provided a ton of value

for, uh, this audience of small and
medium sized business owners and.

Coaches and consultants.

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Mm-hmm.

Reed: do think that there is just a lot
there in, in, what you preach and teach.

Um, so this has been a real pleasure.

Thanks so much, Jesse.

Jesse P. Gilmore | Founder of Niche in Control:

Yeah.

Thanks for having me on.

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