Inside Marketing with MarketSurge

Speaker: Welcome to Inside
Marketing With Market Surge.

Your front row seat to the
boldest ideas and smartest

strategies in the marketing game.

Your host is Reed Hansen, chief
Growth Officer at Market Surge.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Hello and
welcome back to today on Inside Marketing

with Market Surge, and we're diving
into a topic that most companies think

they're good at, but few truly understand.

That's cross-cultural integration.

about why it fails, how it breaks teams,
and what leaders can do to finally fix it.

We're joined by someone who
has been living and breathing

this work for over two decades.

Sandra Bonifacio, cross-cultural
leadership coach, emotional intelligence

expert, and founder of Exudes.

has helped leaders, teams, and global
organizations navigate the emotional,

cultural and interpersonal challenges
that come with working across borders,

not just geographically but emotionally
. She specializes in cultural sensitivity

and emotional intelligence, leading
multicultural teams, helping professionals

adapt abroad, communicating frameworks
that reduce tensions and restoring

confidence during moments of transition.

Sandra, so happy to have you.

Welcome to the show.

Sandra Bonifacio: Thank you
very much, Reid, for having me.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge:
Yeah, my pleasure.

it's been nice to get to
know you over these last

Sandra Bonifacio: Likewise.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: You know,
and I'm super interested in this topic.

I think it's something that we, in
the world of today, we are seeing

more and more of people either
translocating or seeing their.

Communities and workspaces being
more and more diverse with a lot more

representation from different communities.

And so I think this is going to be more
and more important as the time goes on.

So tell me a little bit
about the mistakes you see.

So say a company does not take
cross-cultural integration into account.

what's a mistake that you see
by companies that's very common.

Sandra Bonifacio: what I think it's very
important to understand that when you

are sending employees abroad on a daily
basis, the operational processes and

the managerial styles will be different.

So I think without the, proper cultural
training experts might feel a little bit

unmotivated left behind, not integrated.

So I think it's very, very important
That companies provide cultural

training and not just to get
acquainted with the new culture, but

also training in communication how
the new expert will be communicating

in this new work environment.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

Well, let's talk about
the term culture fit now.

I know that a lot of companies
are looking for that or they're

trying to recruit for that.

How would you say that just looking
for people that fit a culture

might hurt team performance.

Sandra Bonifacio: I think when you are
working with diverse teams, I mean,

everybody brings something that is unique.

And I think that can
enrich a team performance.

So to expect people to just
fit into a particular culture

and do things a certain way.

Might leave a lot of creativity aside
especially now with younger people that

are very creative and innovative and
sometimes they feel, well, I don't want to

perform in this rigid work environments.

And sometimes they quit
their jobs and go elsewhere.

So I think it's very important to
take into account the richness that

each person can bring to the team.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Ab.

Well, absolutely.

I think that's really
important and you know, like

recognizing that it's not always

something tangible, but, a lot
of benefits that really enrich

everybody, help everybody learn.

I think there's a lot of pluses here.

you've been working in this field a while.

What surprised you when you
first began coaching expats?

Whether it's from the emotional
standpoint or cultural standpoint.

You know, and maybe some learnings
we could have that companies

could start implementing.

Sandra Bonifacio: I think one
of the main things to take into

account is that expats are out of
their normal circle of influence.

And so it's not just that they
feel, you know, they fit right

in as soon as they get there.

And so I would say maybe more time spent
from leaders welcoming these new expats

into the company culture and to ensure
that the employees are engaging well.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

Great.

do you, can you think of
any particular experiences?

you know, I've had the experience where.

I both worked as the expat and
I've had expats join the office.

And I think it's almost an experience
everybody should have to be the, expat,

And I think it gave me a lot more
empathy for people that weren't local.

do you have any thoughts that way, I mean,
Sandra, you've had experience working in

different places, what do you think is how
can leaders develop more empathy for that?

Sandra Bonifacio: I think it's
they have to understand that

people, like I said before, are
outside their circle of influence.

They are coming into a
new culture and sometimes.

They come with families.

So for the expat, sometimes it
is easier if they are sent to

work for the same company abroad.

I mean, it's like more or less you are
familiar with the corporate culture.

But then you get home and you have
your family members, your spouse,

who sometimes it's their company
spouse that left her job or his job

behind to be part of this experience.

So I think sometimes, more compassion,
I would say, on the part of the leaders.

More check-ins, regular check-ins.

How are you doing?

How are you adjusting?

Is there anything we can do for you?

And not to think that onboarding
is just a one-time thing because It

takes more than two or three days.

It takes sometimes months, and
usually when people move abroad,

they said the first six months
are the most difficult ones.

And so I think to do regular check-ins
and to make sure that the, is engaging.

Well, very important.

If you are going on your own and as
a solopreneur or entrepreneur I would

try to definitely find a group of
local people that I can relate to.

The social aspect is extremely important.

Being connected to locals, even if
you're not very fluent in the language

of the target culture, but just being
with people, socialize, get out there,

get to know the area you're in that will
help a lot transition into new culture.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: So to get
like a finer point on it, where do you

see most emotional misunderstandings
showing up in multicultural teams?

Like, are there certain
expectations like, communication

style, like giving feedback or

Sandra Bonifacio: Definitely.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: You know.

Sandra Bonifacio: for example I was
raised in Argentina and you know,

Latins are known for being very
passionate and sometimes loud, and

sometimes that can be taken as an
aggressive way of communicating.

it can make other people, like for
example, Asian cultures, feel like

they are not left aside, but they
don't interact as much when we

come in with this aggressive style.

also the way feedback is given
sometimes in cultures people are

very careful when giving feedback.

It's a very sensitive time
for people and in others.

They're just very direct.

And so that's another important
point to take into account.

Also relationship building.

The importance of, for example, in Asian
cultures, you have to get to know the

person before you do business with them.

Where in the American
culture is totally different.

And so it is in some Latin American
countries, but relationship

building is another very good point.

Also work life balance
and personal boundaries.

When we moved to Europe, we were
living in the States with my family

and we had an experience in Germany.

What I was amazed at is like
people were working just to get

that whole month of August off.

They expect you to maybe
take that, time off.

And so it's very different for
someone working for an American

culture where, you know, you take
two weeks max, sometimes three.

And so the expectations of
that work life balance also is

something to take into account.

What else?

Different ways of resolving conflicts.

For example, if, you want your
employees to participate actively

in conflict resolution versus you,
dictating what needs to be done.

That's another point.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: No, no.

Well, I, you know, I just, along that
thread, are there any particular, so

say, I come into or I'm working in an
environment and then somebody from an

expat from another, you know, grew up
in another culture, another country.

Are there like general emotional
cues I should look out for?

you've outlined some, but are there,
like, are there certain expectations

I may have as an American that
I need to tread more carefully?

Like, you know, you've
highlighted a few, but like, is

there like good rules of thumb?

Like maybe tone something down or be

Sandra Bonifacio: The

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: clear in

Sandra Bonifacio: one that is
it's a typical one, is humor.

You know, so certain cultures can
use humor and they can be like,

they make jokes and they are very
sarcastic, but that might not, you

know go well with someone that is
not used to that kind of interaction.

So that's one that really, it
stands out a lot and can make

people feel uncomfortable.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Okay.

No, that tracks I, when I spent some
time working in Italy I would default

to sarcasm occasionally, and they
would just be mystified like, what?

You know, why would you say such a thing?

but yeah, that's a great one.

Conversely, I worked for a company,
Oracle, and there was quite a strong

pipeline of Indian technical people
support people that would come to

the office that I was working in.

there was a large enough group of them
that they felt quite comfortable, but,

there were clearly some differences and I
almost felt like I had to adapt and I was

almost the outsider in some situations.

Sandra Bonifacio: Mm-hmm.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: You
know, that was very interesting as

Sandra Bonifacio: And how did you
feel working with Indian culture?

What was your experience?

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Well, you know,
I noticed that they were very precise,

very polite and formal and extremely
hardworking and, you know, like on

time, very diligent and I think real
priority was on knowing the right answer

and coming in with a lot of knowledge,

Sandra Bonifacio: Mm-hmm.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Negotiate,
for instance, you know, just very,

you know, like distinct lines and,
and you know, obviously like very

intelligent people I worked with
and, and with some great skills.

But it was not quite like the friendly
loose environment that you often see,

like, well, I think it might be like this,
or, you know, they came prepared and.

Sandra Bonifacio: Yeah, definitely.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: in that way.

well, so tell me a little bit about yeah,
actually I'd be curious, you know, have

you, do you have any general observations?

Are there certain industries
that do this very well?

Like maybe they have more years of
having multicultural offices versus

others, or certain types of businesses

Sandra Bonifacio: Well, I would
say the ones that invest the most

are definitely like educational
institutions because they deal with a

lot of students that, you know, have
programs abroad or they come to study.

they move countries frequently.

So they are the ones that, yeah.

And then the pharmaceutical interest too.

It was one that I was used to work
for ag businesses tech companies.

There's a lot of outsourcing
with tech companies.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Interesting.

Okay.

Well, you know, and I think there's
probably some element of that, you know,

like what technical skills are required.

You know, and, maybe like the expertise
that we're training well in our

schools in the US and maybe we have
some deficiencies in other areas.

You find that.

Say, you know, you have a multicultural
office that has a lot of you

know, everybody's on the same page
technically, but maybe emotionally

or like the social alignment is off.

You know, like the way they confront
challenges or a new project, you

know, like how can a company prepare
for that or, build around that.

Sandra Bonifacio: I think when
you have that situation on the

technical side, you will have tasks
completed, you know, goals met.

But when there's not that
emotional cohesion among team

members some team members may
feel, that they lack motivation.

they feel frustrated.

Their points of view are
not taken into account.

So they don't really
feel part of the team.

And in the long run it
doesn't work out very well.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

Now, I'm sure I'm simplifying a
lot of these factors, but an image

popped into my mind it seems like.

in these situations, there's
the leader of the team.

the main body of the team that's
primarily of one similar culture,

you know, maybe the local culture and
then the expat that joins the team.

Who in these scenarios needs the
most training or needs to make

the most accommodation generally
to be successful all throughout.

Sandra Bonifacio: generally the
expert coming into the group.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

Sandra Bonifacio: we, and I said
we, because we've been there and

you two have and do you know,
our parts and it's usually hard.

But I also think that a good leader
is the one that also provides.

Training, not just cultural,
but communication training.

So he integrates the expert into how that
particular team is communicated, and he

himself knows about the expert culture.

So it's, for me, it's
like a two way street.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

Now you've mentioned several
times that the social aspect

of this adaptation is really

Sandra Bonifacio: Mm-hmm.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: You
know, a lot of that happens.

A little bit of that happens
during work hours, but a lot of

it happens outside of work hours.

To what degree can a leader
help that along or facilitate

that or should be involved?

Sandra Bonifacio: Yeah.

And, I saw this in a company I was working
for in Argentina when the director of

the department started organizing, after
our meetings employees felt a lot more

engaged and they were really looking
forward to that hour of socializing

with their colleagues and even with the
leader, who was, higher up than they were.

And I think.

It's to create that on
a more frequent basis.

I wouldn't say, every week is but
maybe once every 15 days or once

a month to organize some outings.

Just to share you know, how's
your life going on, on anything

outside the work routine?

Get to know the person
on a more personal level.

It's very important because
then also when they are.

Back at work they feel
heard, they feel noticed.

They don't feel that they're
just a number, but they're taken

into account in a different way.

So I think it's very important that,
you know, the leader this horizontal

way of, leading versus the vertical one.

Well people feel much better
in the horizontal way.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: So what about
when, you know this goes very well

and an expat joins the team succeeds
and moves into a leadership position.

You know, there's still an
outsider to some degree.

do you have good guidelines for.

An expat or somebody non-native
to that local communication style,

being successful as a leader.

are there certain things they can
do to help themselves or that an

organization can do to help them?

Sandra Bonifacio: I think it's
very important that you also

get the training of how that
corporate culture works in that.

Country that's very important to
have a more fluent communication

with the team members.

Also sometimes I would say when people
move abroad in the initial phase is

very important to have a coach to have a
space that is safe where they can open up

and, express things that happen to them,

And not just be left there having
to figure everything out on

their own because it's a lot.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

Sandra Bonifacio: In some experiences,
leaders have been assigned what they

call a body, but it's like sometimes
it's an agency that helps them, you know,

during the initial transition period to
find good places to learn the language

or continue learning the language.

Sometimes if they didn't have time to
do it before going into the culture,

the target culture, they give them
time to make sure that once they move

into the culture, that's one thing
that they don't have to worry about.

So that the family settled,
that the kids are okay.

And so the leader can concentrate on his
new task because, you know, they also

have to perform in a new environment.

It's the same company, but
I am dealing with locals.

Will they understand me?

and sometimes people are even judged
by accents, and so I would say.

For a leader coming into a new
position abroad, for people

to be more compassionate.

And sometimes it's just
about communication.

Whether you communicate, you know,
with a strong or a weak or as long

as people make themselves understood.

That's, I think, a very important
point to take into account.

And yeah, I would say more
compassion towards it.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge:
And That's good to hear.

when we're talking in terms of, a team or
an individual leader, are there certain

practices, like daily practices that
a leader or a team can do together to.

Strengthen their capability to
take on expats or, you know,

just be more welcoming, more
compatible with differences.

are there any things that you
can practice in anticipation

of somebody joining that team?

Sandra Bonifacio: The first one that
comes to mind is active listening and

it is not just hearing the words, it's
looking at the nonverbal language.

It's the tone it's opening up to
see what the other person conveys

and doesn't convey, and for you
to be prepared to read that.

So I think leaders should
have that preparation.

to be able to read, beyond words.

Tone conveys a lot in
nonverbal language as well.

Yeah.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Fantastic.

Well, you know, I would predict
that we will see more of

this in our workspaces than

Sandra Bonifacio: Mm-hmm.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: going forward.

That there will probably be
more opportunities for this.

And, it does sound like we need to.

Individually you know, prepare ourselves
to be more compassionate, better

listeners, active listeners, and ready
for this being a part of how we work.

And you know, multiculturalism, I
think it has tremendous benefits

to our work, to our lives.

And you know, I'm, I'm glad that there
are professionals like you really helping,

Sandra Bonifacio: Thank you.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge:
thrive with this.

Sandra Bonifacio: Thank you.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah, thank you
so much for joining the podcast today,

and Sandra, where if people would like to
work with you, where can they find you?

Sandra Bonifacio: Okay, I have
a website called expats.com.

X-P-A-T-T-I-T-U-D-E-S,
or my LinkedIn profile.

I'm Sandra Bonia.

So the information is outlined there.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Fantastic.

Well, Sandra, it's been a pleasure
and I will include those links in the

show notes for anybody interested.

But please reach out to Sandra,
whether you yourself are the expat

or you have people joining your team.

I think this is great training.

Great skill building for anybody.

Sandra Bonifacio: Thank you very much.

Have a great day.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Thank you.

Sandra Bonifacio: Bye-bye.

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