Inside Marketing with MarketSurge

Welcome to Inside Marketing
With Market Surge.

Your front row seat to the
boldest ideas and smartest

strategies in the marketing game.

Your host is Reed Hansen, chief
Growth Officer at Market Surge.

Reed: Today on Inside Marketing with
Market Search, we're diving deep into

the intersection of content, AI, and
digital integrity with someone who's

leading the charge in all three.

Our guest is John Gillum,
founder of originality.ai,

the tool that's quickly becoming
the industry standard for AI content

detection and plagiarism checking.

John's not just a tech founder, he's
a veteran in SEO content marketing

and online business growth with a
background in building systems at scale.

If you're a marketer, agency owner
or content driven entrepreneur

trying to stay ahead of the AI
curve, you'll want to listen closely.

So let's jump right in.

And John, welcome to the show.

Jon: Thanks Reid.

Reed: Yeah, absolutely.

Well, just as a, form of introduction,
could you tell us what inspired

you to create originality.ai

and what gap in the market
were you seeing at that time?

Jon: Yeah, sounds good.

So yeah, my background was in,
um, SEO Content Marketing, built

up a content marketing agency.

Uh, I sold that in 2022.

At the time, we were one of the
heaviest users of Jasper ai,

so kind of predating chat, GBT.

Um, and we had one part of that,
that company that was selling

transparently selling AI generated
content to, to marketers.

Um, and then.

We were struggling to answer the question
ourselves around, well, how do we know?

we're allowing it in this part of the
business and we know we don't allow it

in this part of the business, but what
controls did we have in place to ensure

that, uh, our policy was being followed?

Um, and so sold the content marketing
business and then started down the

journey of building ity ai, which
was, um, and, and is meant to be a

complete content quality QA qc tool for.

Digital marketers and
large volume publishers.

Uh, launched with AA detection and
plagiarism checking, and then actually

ended up launching the Friday and chat.

GT on the Monday right after I.

Reed: Yeah.

Wow.

That's, that's fantastic.

Um, I have gone back through your
blog archives and, and you do a

great job describing the difference,
um, in originality, you know, kind

of like a unique value proposition.

Versus other content detection tools, but
like at a high level, what is the primary

difference that, could kind of illustrate
what originality AI does differently?

Jon: Yeah, I mean the customer
that we focus on is the.

Digital marketer, anybody that's
publishing content on the web, that's

then that guides the rest of the,
decisions, which makes things like the

training data set that we use to make
our detector the most accurate, the false

positive allowances that we will have.

then the other features that we'll build
where we have a content optimizer or

a fact checker, a readability checker.

Whereas if you're building sort
of a general AI checker, those

features don't make a lot of sense.

But if you're building for people
that are publishing on the web,

those are some really handy features
to have for those individuals.

Reed: Yeah, no, that, that's great.

And I think, uh, there are a lot of
people in my audience that would fit

that description and, um, you know,
so I, I, I think your tool really

addresses a, a key need and, um,
you know, we'll talk a little bit

more about, um, the implications in
education, um, a little bit later.

But I, um.

You know, I've definitely been
generating AI content for a while.

I, I was a Jasper user as well.

And, um, it is something that maybe.

Gets a little overlooked the,
the ethics of plagiarism.

What, what would you say is the primary
risk calculation for an agency or,

or a large, uh, volume publisher?

Um, if they ignore, uh, the
potential plagiarism in, in

their AI generated content.

Jon: Yeah, so I think the risk
stems from Google, and that's

cascades up to agencies and writers.

But the real risk for publishers is that,
Google is on a very clear war path against

mass published AI generated content.

not all AI generated content
is spam, but certainly in

2025, all spam is AI generated.

And so there's a lot of energy that gets
put in by Google to try and sniff out,

identify and punish sites that are mass
publishing, automatically generated text.

they don't use the sort of like.

Weasel their way around saying AI because
they want to be this AI forward company,

but then they need to defend their search
results from being totally overrun by ai.

So that risk then cascades up.

if that's the risk that exists with.

the website owner, then, if they're hiring
a content marketing agency to provide them

content, they're the ones that ultimately
own that risk and not the agency.

And so they want to make sure that
there's a policy in place and controls

in place to ensure that the content that
they're getting meets their standards.

If they're saying no AI on our site,
that's what they're wanting to make sure

the agency holds, and then that translates
into the same risk to the writer.

Where writers need to publish, human
generated content, if that's what

the requirements of policy are.

Reed: So, you know, as an SEO
professional, you've been doing this.

For years and had a successful, exit.

from my perspective as well, Google
is constantly changing its algorithm

and we have to be very nimble.

this is like another dimension
of, characteristics and decisions

that these crawlers are making.

how do you stay on top of this?

How frequently are you having to adjust
and modify your algorithm To be effective.

Jon: So the it, it's been surprising
where we've seen it, so we have to update

based off of the different AI models.

Reed: Okay.

Jon: AI models come out.

Our detectability, might not drop based
on every new model that comes out.

We've actually seen as new models come
out, our efficacy, the amount that our

accuracy drops is actually lower than
it was, on the previous model iteration.

And so we're constantly, we've
a red team and a blue team.

We call within our AI research team,
where our red team is always trying to

like beat the detection tool and the
blue team is always trying to like.

Make our detection tool
better and better and better.

And so it's a constant process,
that is always ongoing.

But the sort of the starting
guns for checking if anything

has changed is every time a new
foundational model gets released.

Reed: You know, that's,
that is really interesting.

Um, do you find that the businesses
that are gonna see the most

return on investment using.

A plagiarism checker, are they
the same that would see the return

on investment from effective SEO
best practices outside of ai?

or is there some areas where, plagiarism
checking is particularly effective?

Jon: Yeah, I think that's true.

I think there's pockets,
there's other risks.

So I think that the main risk is
definitely that if you publish

mass, publish ai, generat content,
Google will find you and hurt you.

Reed: Mm-hmm.

Jon: and then I think there's, I.

Yeah, there's other risks around
reputational harm, um, where AI can

con, hallucinate and confidently
bullshit and result in the

publishing of factually inaccurate
information which hurts your brand.

And so I think there's, there's other
risks, but I think those are very much

secondary to, um, that sort of primary
risk around the, results that direct

publishing AI content will have in Google.

Reed: Interesting.

But among your customer base, have you
seen, your pitch, your offer be more

effective to certain niches or anything?

Jon: Um, agencies,

Reed: marketing.

Jon: that they feel the pain.

Reed: Hmm.

Jon: immediately, so a publisher
that if they could publish a thousand

articles today and they might not
see an impact tomorrow, but they

certainly will over a period of time.

Um, an agency, if they're
trying to provide, you know.

Pay the writer, whatever the
rate is, uh, mark that up,

pass that on to the customer.

Um, if there's no transparency in
that process around where AI is being

used, where plagiarism is occurring
or not occurring, um, that is pain

that is immediately felt because
The transaction doesn't happen.

And so the client might say, I'm
not paying for this AI content.

The writer might not get paid
if they pushed AI content.

So this sort of immediate pain
is felt on the, content marketing

agency side, where they need to drive
transparency between the writer, the

editor of the agency, and the client.

Um, and that's where we, find a lot of
really, really good fit with customers.

Reed: Oh, that's great.

That's great to hear.

Um, so I, something that we
touched on earlier, and this is

outside of the business realm,
but, um, I have a daughter that.

applying to college.

Um, another daughter who's,
uh, a freshman in high school.

And, uh, I've seen this, this pop
up occasionally on, uh, news feeds

that students are using AI generated
content to, uh, you know, submit

papers, uh, submit assignments.

Um, obviously that is.

pretty easy to do.

Um, and these AI tools are so cheap,
they're very accessible to young students.

Some, in some cases
they get free accounts.

Um, what do you, let's talk a little
bit about like those, the implications

there in the, in the education
space and, um, is a, is a plagiarism

checker like originality, do ai,
is that going to be the solution?

Or, or what do you think?

Jon: Yeah.

So in the area we've thought a lot
about, um, not the area that we

had sort of a clear understanding
of when, when this launched.

But as soon as we launched, Tre
PT launched a few days later,

the implications for academia
became incredibly clear that this

was gonna be something that was
going to be used by students.

And then very quickly it was clearly
being used by a lot of students.

Um, I'll describe maybe the journey
a bit that we've gone on sort of

while we've been thinking about this.

Um, and that sort of academia has
also gone on, um, at first the like.

Uh, is this perfect?

are AI detectors perfect at
identifying AI generated content?

And can you prove why this piece
of content was AI generated?

And the reality is, it's a
little bit like asking chat GBT.

Why did you write X?

Like these are AI systems themselves.

Um, they are highly
accurate, but imperfect.

99% of the time they'll call ai AI
and then like one to 3% of the time,

they might incorrectly call human ai.

Um, that's really accurate.

Great.

metrics for a lot of use cases that,
for the use case of sort of academic

disciplinary action, um, when you have
an imperfect system with no provability,

um, that's really, really hard.

Reed: Hmm.

Jon: sort of the initial reaction from
academia was like, you're not perfect.

Uh, we're not using detectors.

then they're like.

Holy crap.

We're being absolutely
overrun by AI content.

We know this is all AI content.

What do we do?

Um, and then that's when the
adoption of AI detection tools

became far more widespread.

We still didn't love our tool being
used within that setting because

we don't think it's the sort of
ultimate solution for that problem.

I think sort of the defense of the
assigned writing as an educational

instrument isn't gonna come in the
form of AI detection, but it's more

likely gonna come in the form of, um.

Uh, management, sort of
writing environment, spyware.

Um, and we didn't wanna
build that solution.

So, so that's been kind of
our journey down that path.

Um, think it's a, it's gonna be,

I think the wrestling with how to
manage AI is, is gonna be a never

ending battle that now academia faces.

Um, I think the detection will
continue to play a role in that space.

Uh, but I don't think it can be the
ultimate solution because it's, it's

highly accurate, but not perfect.

And when you're dealing with disciplinary,
uh, actions, you need to be pretty

near perfect and, and provable.

I.

Reed: Yeah.

Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.

Now to extend to, uh, besides academic
discipline, obviously there are potential

misuses for the academics themselves.

I don't know if that's any different,
but you know, when there's, Actual like

facts and established science at stake.

I can't imagine how, potentially
dangerous, that could be, you know,

as somebody's trying to produce like
a, groundbreaking research and just,

half-assing it, you know, like, how,
do you think that that might be a more

realistic use, I guess the academics to
kind of like, let's hit the brakes on this

and let's double check the results, or.

Jon: Yeah, so we've seen, a lot of users,
I think there's a ton of use case where

people are using ai, in their research
process, in their ideation process.

they're working with it while
they're thinking through something.

And then at what point does it turn from,
All AI thought to all human thought.

And when should it be called ai?

And that's a really tricky question.

we see a lot of people, going through this
really iterative process around research.

but they want their final work to
be human and their own thoughts.

they make sure that no AI
accidentally slipped into their work.

the way We see a lot of users doing
that is they'll, check at multiple

steps along the way and see what part
of the text is being identified as

ai, and then dig into like, maybe
I did copy and paste that section.

Or maybe I did write that verbatim
from what I had read so that's how we

see Those deep research projects where
there's a really iterative process

back and forth with ai, but then the
final output, they want to be human.

that's how we see them
interacting with our tool.

Reed: That's interesting.

Um, well back to the business
world for uh, a minute.

Can you tell us a little bit
about, you know, so a lot of, um.

Sales are, are driven by ROI, you
know, every, uh, a business is trying

to, um, you know, they, they take the
investment required and they wanna

make sure that they get a return.

And, you know, you've described a process,
you know, where it, um, you know, it

does help in the, in each step of the
process to, uh, use originality ai.

Um, but tell us a little bit about how.

If somebody were saying like, well, if
I invest, if I sign up for your tool,

um, how can I think in terms of return?

Um, because it does seem like it's,
um, sometimes it like risk mitigation,

um, is, is a little harder to define.

But I mean, obviously you've had these
conversations, so I'm curious how, how,

uh, you define the ROI on using this

Jon: Yeah, so especially for our
ICP, like for the marketing agency

type content, publisher, our tooling
that we provide makes the job of,

copy editor far more efficient.

Reed: Hmm.

Jon: so the savings that companies
experience when using our tool compared

to using their previous method of.

editing is significantly more
efficient and so it's sort of a

no brainer for that tooling set
where the cost very reasonable.

and the labor saved, and the time saved
on a copy editor side is significant.

And we've got some other features
that are gonna be really fun that

are rolling out as well, that
are gonna help them even more so.

So.

They're sort of generating a positive
return there because they agree that

selling mitigation, you know, the
first person that sold life insurance

must be the best sales person ever

Reed: Right.

Jon: like now it's been established
and it's been paid out, but it's like

Reed: Yeah.

Jon: contract that's, that would've been
a fascinating sale that would've occurred.

Um, and so the mitigation
side, I think it's um,

those that are used to dealing
with Google are also very used

to dealing with risk mitigation.

And dealing with, with the sort of the,
there's both the upside and the downside

and the calculus around return, um, is
not always as clear as you might wish.

It was like, investing in SEO
is not a direct correlation.

You me a thousand dollars and I'll get you
two places up higher up in the rankings.

You know, that's how it got
sold a long, long time ago.

But that's not never how it worked.

And it's certainly not how it works now.

And so I think the understanding of our
customers around risk mitigation is.

It's pretty advanced because anybody
that deals in Google, that's the

world that they live in, and breathe.

So I think the ROI on the
publisher side, that's clear.

And then it is a risk mitigation sale.

Um, but I think a lot of
our ideal customers are very

used to that thought process.

Reed: Yeah.

Yeah.

No, that's, that's, uh, that's helpful.

And, and yeah, you're totally right.

It's like you do have to, um,
you know, shift the conversation.

'cause risk is like, you want to think
about that after, but I, I would see,

I mean, I think I have observed in
my own experience, you know, uh, you

know, keyword embedded content and
becoming less and less effective.

And, you know, there's, there's
just, it's so muddy now.

There's so many other factors
that anything I could do to

sharpen the impact of what I can
produce, looks like growth and, um.

You know, and I, I think there's,
there's definitely some, some

demand for that in among people
that, that know the SEO space.

Um, now as a, you know,
as a business founder.

How, uh, you know what, because I have
a lot of entrepreneurs in my audience.

And, and so to go back to the, the
founding of the business, how, how have

you most effectively spent your time?

I mean, are you very hands-on with the
coding of the tool or are you, uh, more

in the business development or marketing?

What, where do you spend most
of your time on the business?

Jon: Um, product and marketing,

Reed: Okay.

Jon: are, is where I sort of
live, um, most, most of the time.

Um.

So I'm a mechanical engineer,
but not a technical founder.

Um, so I can whip up a
spreadsheet, but not code.

Um, and, uh, product, sort of product,
roadmap, identification of opportunities,

sort of analyzing analytics, talking
to customers, sort of that product

role, I spend a lot of time there.

It's also kind of the world
that I come from in terms of.

as a user of what this tool would be.

so I have, I think, not a great hit.

I mean, I don't think anyone
ever has a really great hit

rate with sort of product ideas.

We're okay on our product ideas.

Some of 'em have been great, some of
them have been a little bit of duds.

and then, on the marketing
side, lot of effort there.

the marketing team is led by like, we
have a marketing lead, that runs the team.

But I definitely get in there and.

cause a little bit of chaos.

Reed: Are you an AI user
in your day-to-day work?

Jon: Yeah,

Reed: okay.

Jon: yeah.

Reed: any examples like what?

Jon: I mean, my writing is terrible.

Uh, I mean, it's hilarious that sort
of like I had a content marketing

agency and now have a tool that
helps people with the writing.

I would way rather think in
spreadsheets than written word.

And so I use it all the time for internal
communication, because I just like.

my thoughts into like a train,
GBTs, and then it, spits out some,

you know, really it's like, oh,
that's what word should communicate.

I get it.

that's way better than what I
communicated and way more succinctly.

So, I use it all the time.

data analysis, it's great for that.

I use it for that almost daily.

Reed: Okay.

Jon: but yeah, all the time.

Reed: Yeah.

That's fantastic.

Um, now, you know, I like to ask,
uh, guests that come on the podcast

and, and I'm particularly interested
in your insight, but, um, what do

you see as like the near end and.

Far term futures of ai, whether it's
in business or in our personal lives.

What would you say are, uh,
sorry, my phone is ringing.

Um, I'm gonna pause just one second.

So I really like to ask, uh, all
my guests on the podcast, and

particularly somebody like you with your
experience in, um, in AI and, and, uh.

Uh, you know, both as a user and,
and, um, working in that space.

But I would love to hear what you see
as the future of AI in business in,

in the near term and, and potentially
in the, in the coming years.

Um, you know, what, what, what
changes should we plan for, you

know, any, any future risks that
we should be thinking about.

Jon: Yeah, I think this
might undersell it.

but a way I like to think about it is, and
I mentioned as a spreadsheet guy, if you

were to sort of look back at the history
of GDP per capita and that growth, and you

would say, where did spreadsheets start
to move the needle for this business?

I think you would not be able to identify
where, but certainly if you took out

spreadsheets, businesses would collapse.

there's so many businesses that are run
off the back of tons of spreadsheets and

if spreadsheets were removed, they're sort
of everywhere, every businesses use them.

They're mission critical for
businesses, but it's like they're just

kind of there and forgotten about.

and I think that's a reasonable,
comparable for ai where, AI

would be far more Big and sexy
and dynamic than spreadsheets.

But I think it's be similar where
it's just become totally ubiquitous

with your constant interactions.

scheduling meetings will become, like.

looking at your calendar and solving it.

I just think that'll just be based
into Gemini, in your Gmail or Google

or whatever system you're using.

So I think it's gonna be, a part
of every part of your day and

every business will adopt it.

The sort of level of impact that it
has will not be, the step change felt.

but I think it'll be just as it gets
more and more integrated and drives

efficiencies, wherever it gets integrated,
will be this impressively scaling, um,

capabilities within all organizations.

Reed: Well, you know, I'm excited.

You know, I love AI and have enjoyed
the reach it gives me, you know, it can

kind of magnify my efforts and I'm glad
that there are checks in the system like

originality do AI to help, keep things
genuine and authentic and not plagiarized.

And, you know, I think you're doing.

Great work and, we will be a user
and use this for our clients as well.

This is, something that, as I
learned about your business I think

is going to be essential for SEO
and even just an ethical concern.

I think it's, something
businesses should control for.

so thanks for your work on this.

Jon: Yeah, no thanks.

it's fun.

we didn't set out to build sort of
a societally important business.

Reed: Mm-hmm.

Jon: certainly with the rate of
adoption of ai, it's become, societally

significant, to have guardrails
in place around the adoption, both

ethical development of ai and then
I think we're on sort of the ethical

use side of AI and play, a bigger
part in that than we set out to play.

But it's fun.

Little intimidating, but lots of fun.

Reed: Fantastic.

Well, John, where can listeners find
you if they'd like more information

about you or about originality?

Ai.

Jon: you can contact me at John
jn at originality ai, or, uh, sort

of not super busy on any social
platform, but, uh, LinkedIn, I'm

kinda the most, most frequent there.

Reed: Fantastic.

Well, John, thank you so much for your
time today and insight into this space.

You know, you're really, a pioneer
and a leader and, um, really impressed

with what you've put together.

So thank you.

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